Author Topic: Carving / Maker ID  (Read 3574 times)

Offline Top Jaw

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Carving / Maker ID
« on: November 19, 2018, 01:31:55 AM »
Any thoughts on who made this one?  Someone filled old horse head box cavity with wood putty.  Don’t believe barrel is original, and nothing on it.












Offline 120RIR

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Re: Carving / Maker ID
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2018, 02:35:27 AM »
My expertise is limited but the moment I saw the carving I thought "Frederick Sell" or at least of that school/region.  What the heck was going through head of the guy that cut the buttstock, etc.?  It's probably worth restoring but that'd be a major undertaking.

Offline bama

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Re: Carving / Maker ID
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2018, 02:44:49 AM »
I thought Sell myself. That would be quite a project but worth it.
Jim Parker

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Offline Top Jaw

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Re: Carving / Maker ID
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2018, 07:27:19 AM »
Looking through some of my books, I see a lot of similarities to George Eister. 

Offline louieparker

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Re: Carving / Maker ID
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2018, 05:02:52 PM »
You fellows may be right. But I think I see a bit of George Eister under all that abuse ......Louie

Offline vanu

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Re: Carving / Maker ID
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2018, 05:13:47 PM »
Agree, looks George Eister...

Bruce

Online JTR

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Re: Carving / Maker ID
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2018, 06:12:28 PM »
I'd have no problem agreeing with Eister. I agree that some degree of a restoration would help it a lot but what an adventure that would be!
But then again, might not any restoration ruin this lovely guns wonderful history,,,,,, ;-)

TopJaw, just out of curiosity, could you share how you came about finding it?

John
John Robbins

Offline Top Jaw

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Re: Carving / Maker ID. - G Eister??
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2018, 07:04:44 PM »
I got it at an auction in Ohio.  Estate of a man who’s father ran the first rural electric to the surrounding area, and picked up a lot of old guns stuck in the corner or out in the barn.  So these have been in the same family for a couple of generations.  This was on a table of mostly broken down single and double barrel shotgun relics.  Its in rough shape, but I knew I had seen similar carving in my reference books, and I thought it looked York Countyish, so I brought it home. 

Which brings up the next logical question.  How much restoration is appropriate?  Barrel is bobbed to about 36 inches.  Stock has been shortened an inch or two.  Could have been turned into a boys rifle at one point.  Wood putty could probably be dig out and the horse head box replaced, and engraved.  Would need wood added around lock, and replacement lock found, trigger guard, inlays replaced etc.
big question is, is it worth going further by lengthening the butt to original proportions and replacing the Eister carving that was cut off?  (No easy project!!). And if not, what do you do with the shortened butt as is?  Try to add a new buttplate?  If you keep the barrel at current length, the boys rifle hypothesis in its history makes sense.  Any thoughts on my restoration questions appreciated!
« Last Edit: November 19, 2018, 07:18:24 PM by Top Jaw »

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Carving / Maker ID
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2018, 07:18:01 PM »
I probably wouldn't do anything to it except keep it as a study piece.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Carving / Maker ID
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2018, 07:36:22 PM »
I also think Eister is your man. Perhaps the best hint is the direction the horses head is turned. This antique is well worth restoration, in my opinion. Unfortunately it isn’t likely to be cheap. Good luck.

  Hungry Horse





 with a lot of

Offline 120RIR

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Re: Carving / Maker ID
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2018, 09:45:15 PM »
I'm glad Top Jaw asked the questions about restoration.  I know some would say not to touch it but why?  I understand the "story" perspective but in a case like this I wouldn't think anyone would object to restoration.  This brings me to a broader question: Many long rifles (like just about any other historical item) have been altered, damaged, converted, etc. over their lifetimes.  If done properly, what's wrong with restoring a rifle as near as possible to it's original condition and configuration?  Unless later alterations really are related to a particular significant event or person, why not reconvert or repair?  In the cultural resources management field and specifically in dealing with properties that may be eligible for listing on the National Register of Historic Places, we deal with what is referred to as a "period of significance".  If a property (building, structure, landscape, etc.) is being nominated for the Register, the period of it's significance is important.  For example, if Washington had his HQ in a particular house for a period of time, it's that period that is historically important.  Without that association, it may be just another 18th century house not all of which are Register eligible by a long shot.  Consequently, can't the same argument be made about a long rifle?  What is the period of significance of Top Jaw's rifle?  Isn't that period the time during which it was made and presumably used?  In which case, why not restore the rifle to that period appearance?  Getting back to buildings (again...for example), proper restoration (using period materials and techniques) of a historic building typically brings it back to it's "original" appearance and it's monetary and historical value is enhanced.  Why should a fine long rifle be considered any different or is it just one of those "because" things?   

Offline Top Jaw

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Re: Carving / Maker ID
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2018, 12:56:15 AM »
The barrel on this may be original to the gun.  It’s an octagon to round.  About 50 cal. Haven’t had it off yet to verify.

Offline Top Jaw

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Re: Carving / Maker ID
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2018, 02:10:21 AM »
The lighting in the room and the green tablecloth make this gun appear reddish. Here is a better picture of the actual color in daylight.


Online JTR

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Re: Carving / Maker ID
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2018, 03:09:53 AM »
If it were me, I'd think a degree of restoration would be in order.
I don't think it needs to be put back to new, but put back to presentable and looking good condition.
First, a good looking and complete gun will interest most any collector, and secondly, it will be worth more money. And no, this isn't about greed, simply that a good looking gun obviously worth a reasonably amount of money will be kept and treasured much longer than a beat up piece of wood!
As is, this gun was probably a step or two from the trash, or fire pit, and what a shame that would be!

John
John Robbins

Offline Longknife

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Re: Carving / Maker ID
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2018, 05:49:31 PM »
I would second Johns' opinion but add  that a degree of "PROPER" restoration would be in order, by a COMPETANT gunsmith. I have seen too many novice restorations that did more damage than good.  Most people are unwilling to pay a professional what it would take to properly restore this firearm....
« Last Edit: November 20, 2018, 05:58:06 PM by Longknife »
Ed Hamberg

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Carving / Maker ID
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2018, 04:52:02 PM »
I would second Johns' opinion but add  that a degree of "PROPER" restoration would be in order, by a COMPETANT gunsmith. I have seen too many novice restorations that did more damage than good.  Most people are unwilling to pay a professional what it would take to properly restore this firearm....
Exactly. I'd never be able to afford to have it done properly, that's why I suggested a study piece. I wonder if after a proper restoration of the gun if you  would have more money in it than what it's worth. It needs an incredible amount of restoration, even done right I don't know how interested anyone would be in paying much money for it as it would be far from original.
 I have always been amazed at what folks will pay for the guns you see in books as nothing but a buttstock then a few years later it's a whole gun and worth 10's of thousands of dollars..
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Dave B

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Re: Carving / Maker ID
« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2018, 06:26:39 AM »
Thank you so much for sharing this piece with us. It's maker has an identical or nearly so in Shumway's TKRGA  # 128. The cheek side carving,and trigger are near identical. Thought to be an unsigned G. Eister. Other examples of signed G. Eister rifles have similar carving and the same side plate as your piece are listed as well.
Dave Blaisdell

Offline Buck

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Re: Carving / Maker ID
« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2018, 09:21:00 PM »
I agree with Louie on the Eister attribution - Altland might be another possibility aside from Sell.