Author Topic: End of Tang Gap or No Gap  (Read 2641 times)

Offline Nhgrants

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End of Tang Gap or No Gap
« on: November 25, 2018, 11:08:29 PM »
When inletting the tang, should the wood be tight to the end of the tang or should there be a gap?
I had heard that there should be a gap to help prevent chipping the stock when the barrel is removed.
I don't see gaps in photos of originals but a lot of them are chipped.
Thanks




« Last Edit: November 25, 2018, 11:18:28 PM by Mark Elliott »

Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: End of Tang Gap or No Gap
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2018, 11:18:38 PM »
Let's just say that it shouldn't be real tight. 

Offline shortbarrel

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Re: End of Tang Gap or No Gap
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2018, 12:43:38 AM »
T would have to know more more about the style of tang to make a comment.

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: End of Tang Gap or No Gap
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2018, 12:55:46 AM »
One old gunsmith I had talked to said you should have a brush fit over a wedge fit if that makes sense.  I don't know if a little more draft on the end of the tang would help or not. The experts will give some opinions on that.

Offline jerrywh

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Re: End of Tang Gap or No Gap
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2018, 01:20:11 AM »
 I personally don't believe in a gap at the end of the tang. But the breach end of the barrel needs to be bedded very well and I do believe in more draft at the end of the tang. The extra draft will allow the tang to slip up rather than chip the stock if it is inclined to do so.
 It is also easier to inlet.  Just my preference.
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Offline redheart

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Re: End of Tang Gap or No Gap
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2018, 04:11:16 AM »
I've heard of folks re-enforcing the tang end of the stock with super glue to help prevent cracks and chipping. but you must stain if first. 

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: End of Tang Gap or No Gap
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2018, 05:01:45 AM »
What jerry said.  The recoil lug portion of the tang and the back vertical end of the barrel should be very well fit, and those larger flat surfaces should be transmitting the majority of the recoil energy to the stock in a somewhat linear fashion.  If the fit is poor, then I would anticipate problems at the rear of the tang.  I definitely would not leave a gap.  The superglue idea is really interesting.
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Offline M. E. Pering

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Re: End of Tang Gap or No Gap
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2018, 08:57:10 AM »
There doesn't need to be a gap, no.  But this is providing, as Jerrywh said, that you have a real good fit of the breech to the stock.  When I inlet a barrel and tang, I finish it with color showing at the breech as evenly as possible, but none at the back of the tang.  This is all you should really need.

Matt

Offline yulzari

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Re: End of Tang Gap or No Gap
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2018, 03:18:35 PM »
The tang nail/screw/bolt should screw into the guard so that it is supported at both ends. Then the recoil is transmitted across the whole length of the shaft. The tank should not have the recoil bear upon the wood at it's end. Thus the fit should be neat but not tight. That is why you have a tang nail/screw/bolt and not a wood screw through the tang. The shaft bears the force and ditributes it to the whole wrist.
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Offline Eric Krewson

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Re: End of Tang Gap or No Gap
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2018, 05:40:16 PM »
I always soak the ends of some critical inlets with superglue to harden the wood. One time on a bow site I said I used this method around knots on on selfbows for a little insurance. Some guy came on and said superglue just sits on the surface and had no hardening effect. The same guy checked with a wood working pro so he could prove me wrong. Surprise, surprise, the pro said the glus soaks in fairly deeply in the wood and turns it into a very hard surface. If you use extra thin Zap A Gap it really soaks in.

My Kibler kit lollipop tang kept taking little chips out when I removed the barrel until I added a little superglue and sawdust to the inside of the inlet, now the inlet is like steel.

Put a little superglue on a pile of sawdust and watch the reaction (don't breathe the fumes), it does the same to end grain.

Offline curly

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Re: End of Tang Gap or No Gap
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2018, 06:40:21 PM »
I always leave a 1/32 gap at the end of the tang. I fill it with colored wax so its not noticeable, yet its soft enough in case there is a problem.

            Curly

Offline redheart

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Re: End of Tang Gap or No Gap
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2018, 07:56:45 PM »
I always soak the ends of some critical inlets with superglue to harden the wood. One time on a bow site I said I used this method around knots on on selfbows for a little insurance. Some guy came on and said superglue just sits on the surface and had no hardening effect. The same guy checked with a wood working pro so he could prove me wrong. Surprise, surprise, the pro said the glus soaks in fairly deeply in the wood and turns it into a very hard surface. If you use extra thin Zap A Gap it really soaks in.

My Kibler kit lollipop tang kept taking little chips out when I removed the barrel until I added a little superglue and sawdust to the inside of the inlet, now the inlet is like steel.

Put a little superglue on a pile of sawdust and watch the reaction (don't breathe the fumes), it does the same to end grain.
Thanks Eric,
This is great advice! :)

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: End of Tang Gap or No Gap
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2018, 12:31:55 AM »
I strive to get 80% or better contact of barrel breech to wood, and that takes the recoil nicely. I don't leave room at the tang end.

Chipping at the tang is more likely to happen when the barrel is being prised out of the inlet.

Many guns have a lock bolt that goes thru the breech plug wrench tab. Failure to remove this screw can cause stock cracking when taking a barrel out.
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Offline redheart

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Re: End of Tang Gap or No Gap
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2018, 12:56:13 AM »
I strive to get 80% or better contact of barrel breech to wood, and that takes the recoil nicely. I don't leave room at the tang end.

Chipping at the tang is more likely to happen when the barrel is being prised out of the inlet.

Many guns have a lock bolt that goes thru the breech plug wrench tab. Failure to remove this screw can cause stock cracking when taking a barrel out.
Amen Acer,
Thanks for pointing this out!

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Re: End of Tang Gap or No Gap
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2018, 01:29:41 AM »
After reading that leaving a gap was a good idea, I did it on several builds. I didn't like it as it seems to show poor inletting just at the most noticeable spot. Now I inlet tight, but bevel the back edge just in case it moves back a little. I also epoxy bed the rear of the breach plug.

Offline Huntschool

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Re: End of Tang Gap or No Gap
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2018, 01:45:10 AM »
I use the super glue but before that I shaped a good draft to the back end of the tang and got a full "black" at the breech contact.  ThenI waxed that area of the tang......  Now I do both.... especially on those "lollypop" TN tangs....

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Offline Nhgrants

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Re: End of Tang Gap or No Gap
« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2018, 09:00:35 PM »
When bedding the breach of the barrel, what did you use for epoxy and what did you use as a release agent of the barrel, plug and tang?
Any tips on doing this? I do have contact but not as much as I would like. Thanks

Offline FDR

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Re: End of Tang Gap or No Gap
« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2018, 10:23:43 PM »
Here is a whole discussion on barrel bedding:
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=51816.0

Fred

Offline Waksupi

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Re: End of Tang Gap or No Gap
« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2018, 02:45:40 AM »
Rather than Super Glue, get some Minwax Wood Hardener. Works good. I like to treat the wood behind the breech. I do leave a small gap behind the tang, as wood being wood, the end grain will compress a small amount over time. Wood finish or wax can hide it, if you get too carried away. 
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Turtle

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Re: End of Tang Gap or No Gap
« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2018, 05:36:04 PM »
 After trying various release agents, I now just use and old candle and rub it on the metal-works great. I use devcon 2 part epoxy, but any kind will work.

Offline redheart

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Re: End of Tang Gap or No Gap
« Reply #20 on: November 28, 2018, 08:17:48 PM »
Rather than Super Glue, get some Minwax Wood Hardener. Works good. I like to treat the wood behind the breech. I do leave a small gap behind the tang, as wood being wood, the end grain will compress a small amount over time. Wood finish or wax can hide it, if you get too carried away.
Are you sure Minwax Wood Hardener isn't just glorified super glue (cyanoacrylate)? :o
Oops, I just checked and it's styrene while Super Glue is acrylic. :-[
« Last Edit: November 28, 2018, 08:25:42 PM by redheart »

Offline shortbarrel

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Re: End of Tang Gap or No Gap
« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2018, 01:05:31 AM »
Acer said it all.

Offline davec2

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Re: End of Tang Gap or No Gap
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2018, 05:58:44 AM »
I spend a lot of time making a rifle.  I would like it to last as long as possible......long beyond what is left of my lifetime.  I use Acraglass to do repairs, but more than that, I bed the last 6 inches or so of every barrel and the barrel tang area on every rifle .....for two reasons.  First, I am not bad at doing a good inletting job, but no matter how long I spend at it, I cannot get 100% contact between the metal and the wood.  Some part of the breech and / or tang will be in contact with wood while other areas will not be.  Since I slot the barrel lugs, the keys or stock pins do nothing to resist recoil.  The only thing that resists the rearward force of recoil as the weapon is fired is whatever metal to wood point of contact there may be in the breech area or along the tang screw.  Now my inlet job on a .54 caliber rifle may last a 100 years, but when I bed the breech and barrel tang area, I know I have a nearly perfect 100% contact between the barrel and stock to spread out the recoil load.  It is the best way I know to insure the highest strength and longest life in the weakest area of a stock.

Second, the vertical face of the breech inlet is all end grain wood.  Hard to really seal well with most finishes.  When that area gets wet (walk in the rain, leakage from the touch hole during cleaning if you don't always pull the barrel out of the stock for cleaning), the wood in that area can absorb moisture, powder residue, cleaning fluid, ......whatever.  When I bed the breech area with Acraglass, it is substantially and permanently waterproof.  No end grain absorption possible.

So....since I would like any gun I build to last as long as possible, and since you can't see the bedding when the gun is assembled, I think it does some good (better recoil and water resistance) and certainly no harm to bed the breech area.  As JerryWH says......"The gun makers in 1790 used the best things and materials at their disposal and I do the same thing."
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Offline Jeff Durnell

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Re: End of Tang Gap or No Gap
« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2018, 12:52:18 PM »
Glad I opened this thread. There's some great info in here. Thanks guys.

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: End of Tang Gap or No Gap
« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2018, 06:46:18 PM »
My guns typically have a gap, but you can't see it. I keep taking away wood at the back of the tang until the inletting black doesn't print anymore. If done correctly you can't see the gap, technically there is no contact at that point.
 I see many guns, some made by big hitters for a lot of money where the back barrel  is maybe 1/32" forward of where it should be. Not a look I strive for.
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