Flintlock speed

[Daryl Pelfrey]

Ive seen some flintlocks fired that all you could catch was one boom which as the main charge. Hat lock would you reccomend? The fastest i guess is my question. Ive always used siler locks on everything ive built, although i like the looms of the round face locks like the ketland I believe.

[smart dog]

Hi Daryl,
You know, I think we spend way put way too much emphasis on lock speed and ignition time as if it really makes a big difference in our shooting.  I never notice lock time when I am shooting and I've shot some extremely good, fast English locks and big clunky military ones.  If you notice lock speed, you aren't focusing on your sights and following through.  What I want in a flintlock is one that goes off nicely every time even after 10, 20, 30 or more shots without a lot of fussing, cleaning, and replacing flints.  How fast it was on the first shot when nice and clean doesn't impress me much.

dave   

[Daryl Pelfrey]

Makes sense Dave. I shot archery competition and follow through with back tension releases was very important. I went to recurves and still follow through was just as important.
 Thanks for the input .

[Bob Roller]

The fastest lock in the world isn't worth a dime because the vent or touch hole
is the final decider in that equation.

Bob Roller

[WadePatton]

Time this one.

And I could tell you what it's replicated on and where I got it, but also know that I've bent the cock a little and modified the spring tensions, tightened the cover (brazed up some slop), and polished the mating surfaces.  So your mileage could vary quite a bit. 

also, that's FF in the pan.


FFWD to 50-ish to skip over me drawing a bead and then remembering my ears were out there swinging in the breeze.  Dog gets agitated in the truck (camera stand) because shootin' means critters to him.  Apologies for the LQ video and I'll do it again sometime with higher-speed settings and cleaner background, this was a "spur of the moment" dealio:




Deets:  Henry Nock 1741-1804, from Tip Curtis.

[mountainman70]

Wade, poochs audio was best part !!! Just kidding,tho I did enjoy it.Sounds like my neighbors pooch when she sees me out in the back yard. Dave

[rich pierce]

The Chambers Late Ketland is a favorite among those looking for speed. My understanding is that lock time is a lesser portion of ignition time. The cock is at rest for a bit while the priming lights then ignites the main charge. To me, a wide pan seems best as sparks anywhere can hit powder. I’m not sure if Larry Pletcher studied how spark volume affects ignition time but I’d guess it does. But I’ve guessed wrong before.

[bgf]

Chambers late ketland is my favorite, too.  Fast and easy on flints with no reworking.  It is on my chunk gun and I built a percussion lock to use on it as well.  Have only shot it in percussion mode a few times, mainly just to see if work.  It is faster than flint back to back, but not enough to make me want to deal with all the hassles of caplocks.  I like the flint so much that I've been reluctant to go to bigger heavier barrel and unmentionable hammer action, which is where most chunk guns have gone...

Almost any flintlock can be improved, though.  It is just a matter of how much effort you put into it.  I like my Durs Egg, but I've spent a lot of time tweaking it over the years.  Softening the frizzen and new forged springs were the biggest gains.

Like was said above, the vent and other factors has a lot to do with speed as well.  Pans can never be too big!

[M. E. Pering]

Lock speed has very little to do with this.  Most modern locks are plenty fast enough.  Also, proper coning of the vent, or the vent liner has a major effect.  But it has more to do with loading and priming.  Once I pour powder down the bore, I turn it vent down and give it a few light taps with the heel of my hand.  Then I turn it up and prime with the same powder, but very little.  I close the frizzen, and don't let my prime come in contact with my main charge.  This is very important.  You want a flash, not a fuse.  This can be a problem if you use 4F especially.  Just what I find works best for me.

Matt

[smart dog]

Hi,
The Chambers round-faced English lock on this rifle has now fired over 600 rounds without a single flash in the pan, misfire, or hang fire. While shooting, I occasionally pick the vent hole, wipe the flint, frizzen, and pan clean with a patch but that is all.  Even when a flint is worn to a nub after 40-50 shots it still fires. I have not shot the gun in a pouring rain but I have in misty drizzles and when humidity was very high and it still fires every time.  It is a remarkable performance and the best I ever experienced.

I case hardened the frizzen and balanced the springs, which mainly required weakening the frizzen spring but the lock geometry is very good.  The tall frizzen and flint cock allow for a long scrape, which enables the flint to scrape through the fouled crud that builds up on the faces of both the flint and frizzen, and produce sparks that are caught by the wide pan.  I am so confident in this lock, that I can always focus on my shooting rather than get distracted by misfires. The Chambers round-faced lock on the fowler below is also incredibly reliable but I had to tweak the system a little at first by enlarging the touch hole.  Since drilling the hole I fired about 90 rounds through the gun with only 3 misfires and all were flashes in the pan on a drizzly day when fouling caked like dough.

Chambers early Ketland, English round-faced, and Virginia fowler locks all share the same geometry and internal parts. They should all be excellent locks.  Chambers classic or late Ketland uses Siler internal parts but different flint cock, plate, frizzen and frizzen spring. It has a roller on the frizzen spring and is one of the fastest locks measured by Larry Pletcher.  It also seems reliable when dirty and fouled after 10 or so shots.  These are the only commercially produced locks that I use anymore unless the gun I am building requires a different lock design.  On a recent late flint English rifle I installed a Davis late flint lock, which seems to be a good one when nice and clean but it remains to be seen how it functions after shooting a bit.  I use Chambers white lightning vent liners with the hole located level with the top of the pan and usually drilled to 1/16" diameter. Moreover, the liner is installed wholly in front of the breech plug face so no notch in the plug is required.

dave 

[flehto]

My first flint   LR build has a Bud  Siler built from a kit in 1977  and a home made TH liner made from a SS set screw w/ the hex on the inside  and  although its name is "Ugly", it requires no "fussing". The amount of prime and its location in the pan is irrelevant....  it fires 100% of the time if the flint is sharp  and a  vent pick is never used.

During a day of shooting or squirrel hunting a wire brush is occasionally  used to clear the  fouling and then loaded. I imagine  my experience w/ this flint LR was the way that most LRs  operated in the early years of our country at which time their lives sometimes depended on their flintlock rifle.

I've never noticed if the speed of ignition varies w/ this LR even though sometimes my priming varies to the point of overfill that has to be leveled w/ my finger so the frizzen is "home"  or at other times the amount thrown looks insufficient  for igniting the main charge, but  it  always does w/ a sharp flint.

W/ our technology today, our flint LRs should  function as my squirrel LR does,  but many don't and I won't go into the reasons  that many flint LRs need an awful lot of fussing in order to fire  reliably..........Fred

[Tim Crosby]

 You may find something helpful in here:

  http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=32160.msg308297#msg308297

  Tim C.

[hanshi]

The rifles I shoot are paired with a variety of locks.  I have Chambers late Ketlands, Silers and a fowler with a Chambers Colonial Virginia lock - same size as the big English locks.  They are all very reliable; and unless I detect a slight "hangfire" I can't tell a difference.  In fact I killed a deer with the fowler one season and it was a running shot.  That big lock was as fast as any of the others.

[Pukka Bundook]

Plus one for what Dave Dog says above.

I even Greased the face of the frizzen when I got my first Chambers English R-faced lock, and it Still threw great big sizzling sparks.
I use this lock,  the Colonial Virginia, and the Early Ketland.

[Eric Krewson]

I believe Pletch disproved the "fuse" theory, his findings were the closer the prime was to the main charge the quicker the gun went off. I keep a toothpick in my touch hole until I am ready to fire the first shot, prime and tilt my prime into the touch hole then level everything back out. Some of my guns like the touch hole picked on subsequent shots, some don't. I also have a 5/64" touch hole on my big bore guns, they go off right now.

I would imagine the fuse theory came into play when all flintlocks had a straight hole drilled for a touchhole, don't think this applies to a white lightning liner.

[rich pierce]

For me, the fuse effect happens when prime is damp because moisture got “right there”.

[Elnathan]

For me, the fuse effect happens when prime is damp because moisture got “right there”.

That rascally angel of the aphorism?

[snapper]

I have shot thousands of rounds in a percussion gun and I have shot perhaps only a hundred to two in a flinter.   There is no doubt in my mind that the lock time for a flintlock is slower, and I can notice it.

While I agree that I need to do a better job of focusing on follow through, but that does not change the lock time and there is no doubt that a flintlock is slower than a percussion.

Unless the added mass of the cock is making it more noticeable?

Fleener

[Daryl]

I have shot thousands of rounds in a percussion gun and I have shot perhaps only a hundred to two in a flinter.   There is no doubt in my mind that the lock time for a flintlock is slower, and I can notice it.

While I agree that I need to do a better job of focusing on follow through, but that does not change the lock time and there is no doubt that a flintlock is slower than a percussion.

Unless the added mass of the cock is making it more noticeable?

Fleener

I have no problem noticing the lag in a flinter's ignition. Most cap-locks go off for me just like a modern gun, even though good timers know the difference.
When shooting trap with a SxS muzzleloader, my 'form' and style is identical to shooting a modern trap gun. With a flinter, I have to pass the bird by 10" to a foot, to powder it.

[Bob Roller]

I have told this before.The Late Tom Dawson had a 16 bore Manton flintlock short rifle that was
so fast that it was more like the gun recoiling under the cock.The tiny pan,the platinum touch
hole liner and a really superb lock made it work.Firing the lock to test sparking was a treat.
This thing made white hot sparks that rolled up in the pan and sizzled.That frizzen had to be
a very high carbon thing to produce such an abrupt reaction.

Bob Roller

[Daryl]

That Bob, or it was made of Igniteum or faced with depleted Uranium.

Just yanking your chain.

[Bob Roller]

That Bob, or it was made of Igniteum or faced with depleted Uranium.

Just yanking your chain.

Daryl,
I remember the depleted uranium and like other traditionalists I
thought it was a bad idea to,as Don Davis said,wildcat a flintlock.**
That Manton lock on Tom's gun was the very peak of sparking
ignition systems and probably one of the attempts to forestall
fulminate ignition systems then coming into use.
You are NOT yanking my chain
**In the late 1950's and well into 60's and 70's carbon deficient
frizzens were all that were available and cooking them with Kasenit
over and over plus carbon steel faces or "half soles"were the only
cures available.I was introduced to 52-100 by a metallurgist in
the late 1970's when I started sending flintlocks to Germany and
it has been very successful in competition over there for decades.
This past September I saw Helmut Mohr at Friendship and he had
his Boutete replica pistol with him and the lock was dated 1979
and the frizzen though showing wear was still fully operational.
52-100 is the material bearings that carry VERY heavy loads as
in locomotive wheel bearing are made from

Bob Roller

[Mr. Bubbles]

I think Pletch did some super slo-mo stuff on the various locks and said the fastest flinters were in the .040"-.050" second range.  Wheelies were about the same, or maybe a wee bit faster (.003"). 

The additional complicating factor with flint guns is the touch hole.  The bigger it is the more sure the ignition, but also the more gas comes out of it slowing the accelerating propulsion down the bore.  Thus, the total barrel dwell time of flint guns is in the .090" range, while a cap gun would be in the .035" range for total dwell time.  By contrast, a fast .22 target cartridge gun might only be .015" total dwell.