Author Topic: possible dumb question- swamped barrels  (Read 2925 times)

Offline tom coffey

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possible dumb question- swamped barrels
« on: November 29, 2018, 01:39:31 AM »
Why, other than saving a few ounces of weight? How much weight difference does it make, on average? There has to be another reason that I can't think of.

Offline David Price

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Re: possible dumb question- swamped barrels
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2018, 02:09:19 AM »
Tom,

Weight is reason enough.

What looks more graceful to you a straight line or a curve like an hour glass ?

Who is more pleasing for you to look at, Popeye's Olive oil or Marilyn Monroe ?

Just funning!!!

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: possible dumb question- swamped barrels
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2018, 02:25:55 AM »
Tom,
I used to think the same as you only a few oz saved. Couldn't justify the extra money. Remained that way until I built and handled the same guns (all Gillespie NC rifles) with a swamped barrel. All the difference in the feel and handling of the rifle have never built a rifle with a straight barrel since!
Dennis
"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

Offline tom coffey

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Re: possible dumb question- swamped barrels
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2018, 02:32:57 AM »
Aha, so it's not really so much the difference in overall weight, but the placement of the weight, or balance then?

Offline Lucky R A

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Re: possible dumb question- swamped barrels
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2018, 02:46:11 AM »
Absolutely,  Swamping the barrel puts the bulk of the weight of the barrel to the breech area.  This moves the point of balance between the hands when shooting offhand.  The result is that of a well balanced lively gun that is easy to hold and handle.  Straight barrels were a manufacturing expedient that resulted in the decline of muzzleloader evolution..
Ron
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Offline Darkhorse

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Re: possible dumb question- swamped barrels
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2018, 02:50:01 AM »
Exactly. After I built my first rifle with a swamped barrel I was hooked for life. There is none of the nose heavy feeling I got with straight barrels. My rifles are a pleasure to carry and hunt with due to the balance.
American horses of Arabian descent.

Offline tom coffey

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Re: possible dumb question- swamped barrels
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2018, 03:19:41 AM »
OK then, school me some more, please. About how much variance would there normally be in a barrel size? Thanks.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: possible dumb question- swamped barrels
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2018, 04:09:49 AM »
Not sure what you are asking but here are dimensions of Rice barrels.

http://ricebarrels.com/chart.html
Andover, Vermont

Offline Pete G.

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Re: possible dumb question- swamped barrels
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2018, 04:39:45 AM »
Absolutely,  Swamping the barrel puts the bulk of the weight of the barrel to the breech area.  This moves the point of balance between the hands when shooting offhand.  The result is that of a well balanced lively gun that is easy to hold and handle.  Straight barrels were a manufacturing expedient that resulted in the decline of muzzleloader evolution..
Ron
Exactly...

Offline David Rase

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Re: possible dumb question- swamped barrels
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2018, 05:33:22 AM »
A tapered and flared barrel also allows you to build a properly shaped wrist due to the taper at the breech kicking out the rear of the lock panels.  There is architectural nuances that you can only achieve by using a swamped barrel.  Swamped barrels also allow you to get away with using lower sights thus lessening sight snag in the woods or in a rifle case.
David

Offline jerrywh

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Re: possible dumb question- swamped barrels
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2018, 07:35:23 AM »
 As Dave Rase said weight is not the only reason besides what he said and others the swamp in the barrel  transfers the largest portion of the weight back towards the butt portion where it is much easier to lift. Just see how long you can hold one pound out at arms length. Then pull it back to about a foot from you and try it. That is the difference. I have been building muzzle loaders for about 60 years. My first two guns had straight barrels.  I have refused to make a gun from a straight barrel ever since then.  Can't stand the feel of one.
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

Offline Jerry V Lape

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Re: possible dumb question- swamped barrels
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2018, 08:13:57 AM »
My first experiences with muzzleloaders was just handling some of the commercially available "hawken" rifles with short straight heavy barrels.  Being accustomed to the balance of good shotguns I really didn't like the muzzleloaders.  Then my cousin repaired an original flintlock from probably 1810 or possibly earlier.  Swamped barrel nice big flat buttstock and graceful stock.  I shot it probably 50 shots that day.  Wanted one but couldn't afford an original or one of the very few quality replicas being built then.  Finally ran into Jim Chambers and Don Getz at the Western shoot.  Got an Isaac Haines kit in .54 cal because I wanted to hunt elk with a flintlock which I do as often as the lottery presents a tag..  Looked at a lot of originals in straight and swamped.  Perhaps the straights became useful for target work from rests but the swamped definitely balance and carry so much better.     

Offline M. E. Pering

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Re: possible dumb question- swamped barrels
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2018, 11:21:23 AM »
Lots of people don't realize that the most popular sport before Baseball came along in this country was competitive shooting.  I saw a  rifle with 2" straight octagonal barrel that was about 40 caliber, and I am sure it was not a hunting tool.  It was dated in the 1840's.  It was obviously an example of one of the old target rifles that were used in competition in the day.

The first rifle I built had a straight barrel, and it was like swinging an anvil when I wanted to shoot something.  All rifles I build today have a swamped or tapered barrel and will continue to be so unless I have a special request for a straight.  Unless you are carrying a short barrel, there is no reason to carry a straight one.  Lucky R A said it all... It is the balance and maneuverability that is the advantage.  And David Price said it all when he pointed out they are just much sexier.  ;)  And if you really look at a finely built rifle with a swamped barrel, you will find they look slimmer and sleaker.

Matt

Offline thecapgunkid

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Re: possible dumb question- swamped barrels
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2018, 03:36:38 PM »
Swamping the barrel also increases your resistance to viruses and adds to your testosterone.  It probably doesn't, but the above compilation of reply-reasons is so thorough that it is hard to think of an additional reply, and I have a lot of time on my hands today.

HOWEVER... don't become one of those guys that walks around with a metal rod pyramid on his head...

Offline Mr. Bubbles

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Re: possible dumb question- swamped barrels
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2018, 10:37:11 PM »
All the above are good reasons for a swamped barrel, but if you look at the swamping dimensions in Alexander's book on originals, you will see there isn't a whole lot of swamp to them.  1/16" is pretty common.  You can kick out the tails of the lock by filing the bolster.  That is'd done a whole lot, but it CAN be.  With an A-weight barrel, a standard Large Siler has too thick of a bolster to achieve a thin look in this area, so it needs it.  I took as much as .060" off on my last build, and stopped when the RR started nicking the main spring.

Also, in favor of the straight barrel is increased stiffness.  With a thin waist and wider muzzle, the whippier part of the barrel will be in the middle, and with more mass out front, the amplitude of the barrel oscillations will be greater, making them intrinsically less accurate.  It's trickier to work up the correct load with swamped barrels than straight or tapered ones.  Most of the target rifles today (cartridge and otherwise) are made with relatively short and thick straight barrels.  Some .22 rifles even have extension tubes for the front (iron) sights.  The longer the projectile takes to get from sear trip to muzzle exit, the more chance there is for the muzzle to be pointed somewhere else than it was at sear trip.   

Offline Hlbly

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Re: possible dumb question- swamped barrels
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2018, 11:06:12 PM »
A straight barrel is boring and ugly. It’s as simple as that.

Offline shortbarrel

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Re: possible dumb question- swamped barrels
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2018, 01:16:46 AM »
i think i was a trend that that caught on in the old days. someone made one and every other gun builder jumped on the band wagon. any thing to sell their rifles. think of today, 5 years age, very few people had beards, but know lots of men have them. someone started a trend.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: possible dumb question- swamped barrels
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2018, 02:37:46 AM »
It can happen naturally when forging a barrel.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Mike_StL

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Re: possible dumb question- swamped barrels
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2018, 04:38:30 AM »
Swamped barrels are the natural result of forging a barrel from a skelp.  Metal moves from the initial weld toward the breech and the muzzle.  It wasn't a style or fashion.  Straight and tapered barrels started coming onto vogue when the machinery to do the deep drill and mill the flats.  The machine made barrels were much cheaper to make and swamped barrels were replaced by upgraded technology.

Offline AMartin

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Re: possible dumb question- swamped barrels
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2018, 11:53:45 AM »
To add to these comments , in using a straight barrel I would not go longer than 40" , after that you really get nose heavy .
With a swamped barrel using the proper taper and flare , I have built guns with as long as 52 or more inches .... not sure why you wanna go that long but you can , just saying ... but is does get rid of the dead weight .

And getting rid of the slab-sided wrist on early rifles is so important .
However , if building a Bedford or something later like this , a straight barrel is used more often ..

I have held original jaegers in Germany last year , with some very dramatic taper and flares ..
The Johann Wagner rifle (if my memory serves me correctly) has a 28ish long barrel , the breech around 1-3/4" , the waist about 1" and the muzzle leaning toward 1-1/2" ... really cool !!!

Al Martin
« Last Edit: November 30, 2018, 11:59:25 AM by AMartin »

Turtle

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Re: possible dumb question- swamped barrels
« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2018, 04:41:45 PM »
 When building a rifle for a customer who wants to save money by using a straight barrel, I have them handle, shoulder, and snap the set trigger on straight and swamped barrel rifles-nobody went for the straight barrel. Personally, the curse is that after building and shooting my first swamper--I can't go back to a straight--ignorance was bliss.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2018, 04:43:26 PM by Turtle »

Offline Marcruger

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Re: possible dumb question- swamped barrels
« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2018, 05:45:48 PM »
To paraphrase my all-time favorite cartoon character Foghorn Leghorn, "A straight barrel is like a road in Kansas....no curves!"    :-D   

Seriously, a swamped barrel just feels so much more alive in my hands.  Of course, many matches are won with straight barrels. 

God Bless,   Marc

Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: possible dumb question- swamped barrels
« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2018, 06:14:18 PM »
Mike _STL,

No Mike, this is not the  case.
Barrels were swamped as early as the 1400's, and bronze ones cast that way.

Taper, flare, pressure and balance were all understood from a very early time.

I cannot myself even imagine making a gun with a straight barrel.  As David Rase says, it mucks up architecture something terrible for our time period, and handling even more so.

Offline Hlbly

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Re: possible dumb question- swamped barrels
« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2018, 07:00:10 PM »
Amen to that, sir!

Offline WadePatton

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Re: possible dumb question- swamped barrels
« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2018, 07:38:40 PM »
Once at a show a pretty contemporary gun caught my eye, and I picked it up and put it to my shoulder--

it felt like a log, and I was "thrown off" for a moment.  I put it back on the display, realizing the reason, complimented the gun, and moved on. 

It just felt dead wrong.



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