Long Range Hunting, 400yd round ball

[Eagle92]

Colorado Muzzle loader elk regs show 54 cal round ball minimum.
Can a flintlock be built to shoot a round ball 400yds?
many of our shots are taken over 300 yds.

What is the max range on any round ball?

maybe I should just make a flinter to shoot modern sabots?

THANKS IN ADVANCE!!!

[G_T]

Roundball is not suitable for hunting accuracy at that range. Also the ballistic coefficient is very bad so the energy in the round is getting pathetic at those sorts of ranges. With iron sights, the shooter's accuracy even with a modern cartridge may be questionable at 400 yards or even 300 IMHO. Your hunting range should be dictated by the range where you can be sure you will make a clean kill, not by the convenient range to the game. If you are going to hunt with roundball, you'll just have to do a bit more on the hunt part to get within effective hunting range of your weapon of choice.

Gerald

[Daryl]

Seriously?

Elk at 400yards? 

You obviously have little idea about ballistics.

Ethics!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[snapper]

First, welcome to the forum.

As you can already see, it is not a good idea at those kind of ranges for a round ball.

200 yards would be a VERY long shot for most anything with a round ball and have a good ethical kill.

Sure you can shoot 200 yards, I do at targets with a round ball.  Not game.

You could make a english sporting rifle in a flintlock or a percussion gun that shoots a concial bullet that would be capable of taking elk at 400 yards.  With the right ML rifle, I would not hesitate to do so.  Others will say that you cant or should not, but I would not hesitate with the right setup and conditions. 

If you go with a sabot, that might work, and might work well.  Just got to be careful not to go to light of a bullet.  At that range you will need the weight of the bullet for knockdown since you do not have a lot of speed.

The other big issue is if you miss judge the distance at 400 yards by 25 yards, you will most likely miss your target.  Or worse blow out a knee on an elk.

For what it is worth, I am a competitive long range ML shooter, and we compete out to 1,000 yards.  So shooting at 500 yards or less anymore is typically not difficult for me.  But again, using the right setup and conditions.

You will get a lot of teeth gnashing regarding your question, but dont let that scare you off.  Lots of good people here and IMO the best forum on the web.  Sometimes we forget that not everyone has the same level of expertise and experience.



Flleener

[Huntschool]

I think I would suggest elk at 100 yards or even less with a .54 and RB.  A bit more hunting/stalking  I suppose.....

[T*O*F]

What is the max range on any round ball?

Just so you know, there is a difference between maximum range and maximum effective range.  The former has to do with distance and the latter to do with energy.

Hatcher's Notebook has an article and chart giving the maximum range of various round balls.

[oldtravler61]

  Let's make this simple. You line up on the elk. You touch the trigger an said elk takes a step or two. What you thought was going to be a well placed shot. Turns out to be a gut shot. Which equates to a long tracking job of you find it. But the animal suffers a very agonizing death. Nope not my idea of ethical hunting. IMHO   Oldtravler

[Daryl]

Sorry I was so blunt. 

Snapper was pretty much spot-on with his post.

 A good conical (I would personally NEVER consider any sabot) in a flat-nosed hollow point pure lead 450 through 650gr. bullet of groove diameter, .45 for lighter, 50 through .54 for heavier

if used in a rifle I was very well familiar with, and had practiced extensively at 100 through 500yards in 50 yard intervals and had a sight that could be regulated for each of those

ranges - (yes, such a sight is available but has no place on an even remotely PC ML). I might consider such a shot, perhaps on a bedded bull - again- ranged with a laser unit, and good sights

 calibrated for the range - it is possible, but

 as oldtraveller noted, 2 steps with exactly the correct hold turns into a gut shot, shot through the hind legs, or hitting a cow, or one of a number of other

problems\errors - other elk, not seen at the time.

Who is spotting the shot - has to be out of the smoke, to positively tell if a hit & where it is hit, if it is a hit.  ML 'bullet' when striking large game, usually makes no more than a slit that usually

does not bleed.  High lung hit might not bleed for a 400yard run.

Usually an exit is necessary for any decent blood trail.  I'm sorry, the requirements, as far as I'm concerned, are too strenuous for 98% of modern rifle shooters, let alone ML bullet shooters.

Round balls, in my opinion are totally out of the equation. All of this is rather elementary for me - stalk closer or don't shoot. Out to 150yards with a decent load and .54 or larger round ball, a

bullet shooting ML has absolutely no advantage.

I've seen that myself.

[Hungry Horse]

IMO if you take a shot at an elk at over 150 yards you are very likely going to be in for either a very long tracking session, or a lost elk all together. A muzzleloader shooting a round ball simply doesn’t have enough velocity to kill an elk sized animal beyond that range.


  Hungry Horse

[RVAH-7]

Sir: Daryl pretty much said it all in one word:  ETHICS.  Archers catch $#*! if a rifle hunter finds a lost carcass with an arrow shaft. But rifle losses are seldom found unless a trapper or houndsman is out after the hunting season.
Despite what many want to think, few folks can consistently keep their shots in a paper plate at 300 or 400 yards with a tupperware stocked suppository rifle & scope. Not to mention wind, breathing control and an endless list of other factors.
4 (FOUR) football fields with a rocklock??  We need to carefully cultivate a respectable image of sport hunting.
Try closing that range to reasonable.  Strive to be a better HUNTER rather than a "shooter".
I'd rather lose a shot than lose a bull.

[elk killer]

While living in Idaho,, I killed many many elk,
All but one were cows, as I'm a meat hunter
All were killed with a .54 flintlock rifle, l never
shot one over 70 yards away, yes I could have
shot many at well over 100 yards, but why?

If you do your part of the hunt, 400 yard shots
are simply not nessary, sure lots of places  are not
the deep woods, but still, you can sneak to within a 100
yards of a antilope, out on the wide open range, so why not
a elk?

Every elk I killed where killed with a round ball and 80 grains
of fff, never had a need for anything different,

[Bob Roller]

 A round ball in .540 diameter weighs about 230 grains. It will lose velocity and
tests we did at Friendship on the primitive range with that caliber indicate a 13" drop
at 130 yards using 120 grains of DuPont 3fg.Even with the long range English style
rifles Fleener has for even longer ranges,the chance of a wounded animal is high.
Stalking to get a one shot kill PLUS an adequate or more than adequate caliber is
the only sporting way to get the satisfaction out of a big game hunt.An injured animal
can be a dangerous animal with many unintended consequences to those not involved
with hurting it.
We have all heard or read about shots at astounding distances with a round ball and
tests verify them but the velocity is and energy is no longer there.

Bob Roller

[Pukka Bundook]

In my estimation, the only M-loader that would come close would be a .450 whitworth or Volunteer type, firing a 500 grain conical, But, for Hunting, this set -up should still not be used for much over 100 yards. (Ethics again)
Such rifles are very good at long range, but for target, not hunting.

[snapper]

Unfortunately many States do not recognize .45 cal rifle as being able to take an elk sized animal.    While I agree with this for a round ball rifle, it also restricts a rifle shooting a 500 plus grain slug.

Lots of buffaloes killed with Sharps rifles firing a 500 plus grain slug out of .45 cal rifles.     

Fleener

[Mike Brooks]

I think open iron sights make this a non starter then add a round ball and you better just forget it. With a laser range finder and a modern cartridge rifle with a scope and with a lot of practice before I go in the field plus ideal conditions and a good rest I could probably make a good shot.

 These days With open iron sights I wouldn't take a shot with any type of gun over 75 yards and, I'd have to have a real good rest. In my youth I shot deer off hand out to 125 yards with iron sights, not something I'm capable of or would try now.

 These plastic stocked scoped inline ML's shooting conicals are good to 250 yards if you have a range finder and a good rest. You'd still have to have a lot of practice time under your belt to consistently shoot well enough before you attempted that shot.

[J Henry]

Learn to hunt,,,,,close.. Fire power will never make up for close,,, I hunted archery before B/P.40 yards max,range,,,HUNT CLOSE.

[OldMtnMan]

I've hunted for elk for over 60 years. I never took a shot over 75 yds. Most were much closer.

Is 400 yds as close as you can get?

[OldMtnMan]

I think open iron sights make this a non starter then add a round ball and you better just forget it. With a laser range finder and a modern cartridge rifle with a scope and with a lot of practice before I go in the field plus ideal conditions and a good rest I could probably make a good shot.

 These days With open iron sights I wouldn't take a shot with any type of gun over 75 yards and, I'd have to have a real good rest. In my youth I shot deer off hand out to 125 yards with iron sights, not something I'm capable of or would try now.

 These plastic stocked scoped inline ML's shooting conicals are good to 250 yards if you have a range finder and a good rest. You'd still have to have a lot of practice time under your belt to consistently shoot well enough before you attempted that shot.

He won't be using a scope in Colorado unless he has a disability or hunts the rifle seasons.

[WadePatton]

Funny, my most local pals who have brought home a few Colorado Elk, at least one trophy bull, do it all with modern archery equipment.

I don't know their average shot, but they hunt public lands and bring home the elk. Perhaps shorten up your range.

[Daryl]

Seriously?

Elk at 400yards? 

You obviously have little idea about ballistics.

Ethics!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[alacran]

The fun of the hunt is getting close. I always hope for powder burns on the hide.

[bob in the woods]

I am a long range target shooter. 1000 to 1200 yards. We shoot B.P single shot cartridge rifles, AND B.P muzzleloading rifles.   Precision iron sights are as important as the rifles, and I can say  that there are very very few shooters with the experience to be capable of calling a shot on an elk /moose at 400 yards with absolute certainty under field conditions.  I have seen new shooters come out and go through 50 rounds without hitting the target.  Our local club has a 300 yard range and many shooters fail even with scoped modern rifles. My opinion is ,  if you are asking this question......you definitely shouldn't be shooting at that range. Sabots especially, are bad since they are usually coupled with pistol type bullets .

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Since you say most of your shots are beyond 300 yards, I'll guess that you already have some experience with long range hunting.  Just no experience with hunting with roundballs.

In short roundballs have a pathetic ballistic coefficient.  The B.C. of a .54 ball is 0.079.  If you use stout charges of about 120 grains of FFg powder you'll get velocities right around the 2000 fps mark.  But by 100 yards that velocity is down to 1100 fps.  The maximum point blank distance with that kind of B.C. is something like 125 yards (for a deer).

So a .54 ball could hit a target between 300 - 400 yards, but the trajectory would be such a lob and the ball would be coming in at such a steep vertical angle I don't know if it would be within the error-factor of today's rangefinders. 

Furthermore, that .54 ball that started from the muzzle at 2000 fps only has 675 ft-lbs by 100 yards.  By 300 - 400 yards it would be like shooting an elk with a .380 auto. 

You can compensate for this by going with larger calibers, such as .72 caliber or bigger, but you are then getting into custom made barrels and guns.  Not too mention powder doses that are approaching a buck a shot.  And recoil . . . and gun weight. . . etc.

If you really, really wanted to kill an elk at those distances with a flintlock I'd say you should
get a custom made barrel with rifling similar to the old civil war sniper guns.  Fast twist, .451 caliber, and a long heavy slug of 450 grains or more.  You can get great accuracy with those.  But they still will be approaching the target from such a severe angle that small errors in distance judgement will translate to misses (or worse, wounding).  The accuracy demands of a civil war sniper are not the same as a hunter.  A gut-shot colonel is perfectly fine, since nobody is worried about tracking him.  While walking shots onto target you can land several shots in the vicinity of a cannon crew without scaring them off. 

I don't think you need to be lectured about ethics - you just need to know about the ballistics of a roundball.  Make your decision from there.

[Daryl]

Sorry I was so blunt. 

Snapper was pretty much spot-on with his post.

 A good conical (I would personally NEVER consider any sabot) in a flat-nosed hollow point pure lead 450 through 650gr. bullet of groove diameter, .45 for lighter, 50 through .54 for heavier

if used in a rifle I was very well familiar with, and had practiced extensively at 100 through 500yards in 50 yard intervals and had a sight that could be regulated for each of those

ranges - (yes, such a sight is available but has no place on an even remotely PC ML). I might consider such a shot, perhaps on a bedded bull - again- ranged with a laser unit, and good sights

 calibrated for the range - it is possible, but

 as oldtraveller noted, 2 steps with exactly the correct hold turns into a gut shot, shot through the hind legs, or hitting a cow, or one of a number of other

problems\errors - other elk, not seen at the time.

Who is spotting the shot - has to be out of the smoke, to positively tell if a hit & where it is hit, if it is a hit.  ML 'bullet' when striking large game, usually makes no more than a slit that usually

does not bleed.  High lung hit might not bleed for a 400yard run.

Usually an exit is necessary for any decent blood trail.  I'm sorry, the requirements, as far as I'm concerned, are too strenuous for 98% of modern rifle shooters, let alone ML bullet shooters.

Round balls, in my opinion are totally out of the equation. All of this is rather elementary for me - stalk closer or don't shoot. Out to 150yards with a decent load and .54 or larger round ball, a

bullet shooting ML has absolutely no advantage.

I've seen that myself.

[bob in the woods]

I can't help myself.  I have seen moose at a measured 400 yards.  They look small at that distance. What metallic sight are you able to find that will give you a decent chance of hitting the kill zone ?  As I said before, more folks talk about taking animals at that distance than actually do it.  From what I see at our club, I don't believe your average hunter can do it with any certainty.  And that is with a scoped modern rifle.  So, my message is....get your rifle, and then take it to the range and have at it at 100 and then 200 yards, and then get back to us.