Long Range Hunting, 400yd round ball

[Dphariss]

Colorado Muzzle loader elk regs show 54 cal round ball minimum.
Can a flintlock be built to shoot a round ball 400yds?
many of our shots are taken over 300 yds.

What is the max range on any round ball?

maybe I should just make a flinter to shoot modern sabots?

THANKS IN ADVANCE!!!

Administrators forgive I need to mention some brass suppository stuff here, its where the data is.
Part of the challenge of hunting with 18th-19th c ML designs is getting close enough to make the shot. Almost anyone with a decent "modern" can shoot critters at 400-500 yards if they can shoot well enough. The round ball is a 150 yards proposition and then it takes some knowledge and experience. Where as I have a brass suppository rifle that is capable of head shots at 400, with a RB rifle I would not shoot an Elk over 150 and then only under "perfect" conditions.  Have you ever shot a flintlock? If not you need some practice in all probability. However, you could make a RB rifle that will shoot fairly well at 300-500 yards. If the ball is about 1" in diameter and the gun weighs 25 pounds to perhaps 50 (see the link below). But you still are dealing with a lot of problems. Drop is incredible compared to modern rifles and so is wind drift. So the bottom line? Hunt like the critters can shoot back, if they don't see you and you have the wind you can get a shot with any luck at all. Unless everyone shoots at them from 400-600 yards and have them hyper vigilant you should be able to get within RB range with some work.  In most instances Elk are not as tough to get on as hay field whitetails or especially Antelope.  The second choice is ambush if you know their habits in an area. Calling is another option. You can shoot sabots if you want but you are still going to be limited to less than 200 IMO since they are designed to shoot short bullets with poor ballistic qualities and velocity is low compared with the typical brass suppository Elk rifle. Elk can be tough and can pack a lot of poorly placed lead away so you need to get close and place the shot. If I can and often have, gotten into traditional longrifle range of Antelope so can you. But you have to know the area and understand how to use terrain for concealment.  Low crawl helps too. I have shot at elk at 400+ with a BPCR, iron target sights. Gun pre-sighted on the spot, I am experienced, shooting from sitting X sticks and I STILL missed. As the set trigger broke  the sight veered ever so slightly and the bullet went over her back. A heavy conical is not a good answer either. Long bullets in a ML? At 400 yards with a heavy bullet a 15 yard mistake in distance can cause serious shot placement issues. For example the brass suppository gun I described the missed shot at the Elk with 100 gr of 1.5f moves a 530 gr PP bullet at 1370 MV. According to Hornady's ballistic calculator with a guessed .35 BC it falls 120" between 400 and 500 yards.  So at the remaining velocities involved one MUST have the EXACT range, have the proper sights and KNOW where to set them for a given range and weather condition. So to quote an old time African hunter, "get as close as you can laddie then get 10 yards closer".  With iron sights at 400 yards a change in the LIGHT, a cloud covers the sun, can produce a miss. Mirage is another factor. Its just not that easy under field conditions even for highly experienced shooters.
https://history.army.mil/news/2013/130325a_amusettes.html
BTW "1/2 sheet of paper" at the time of the Revolution would be about the max size of the kill zone of an elk. A full sheet would make about four  8 1/2x11 "modern" sheets.

Dan

[Dphariss]

What is the max range on any round ball?

Just so you know, there is a difference between maximum range and maximum effective range.  The former has to do with distance and the latter to do with energy.

Hatcher's Notebook has an article and chart giving the maximum range of various round balls.

I would have to go back and read it, but I think Hatcher was guessing about the maximum ranges and gave them too much range. People I know who did some actual testing with a 54 RB rifle could not get the ball to 1000 yards with any elevation they tried. Larger balls weighing 3-8 times what a 54 does may carry farther.
According to the ballistics calculator on my phone a 50 RB at 1800 fps falls 3800 inches going to 875 yards. 6712 going to 1000.
Dan

[crankshaft]

Kinda off thread.... One thing is, most folks can't estimate distance of an animal well, or a tree, etc. The old timers could.   .  It is fun to test yourself and friends.  Can you get within 10 yds. at a 200 yds?.  Most livestock guys admit they  have a difficult  time determining the size/wt. of a pig, or steer at  distance, unless there is something for scale, as a fence.  And they are pros.

[Berksrifle]

Years ago our gun club put in a new long range target backstop. Two new members came to use it. One argued it was 400 yards, the other said it was 500 yards. They asked how far is was, 400 or 500 yards.

They couldn't believe that it was 300 yards! This is in Eastern PA. Good thing we don't get much long range shooting in PA.

Ken

[OldMtnMan]

Kinda off thread.... One thing is, most folks can't estimate distance of an animal well, or a tree, etc. The old timers could.   .  It is fun to test yourself and friends.  Can you get within 10 yds. at a 200 yds?.  Most livestock guys admit they  have a difficult  time determining the size/wt. of a pig, or steer at  distance, unless there is something for scale, as a fence.  And they are pros.

I used to be pretty good at it. Then I lost the sight in my right eye, had to learn to shoot left handed and my depth perception got horrible. Pretty much why all my shots are close now. Although I never took long shots with a muzzleloader. It just seemed wrong in the spirit of using one.

[Larry Pletcher]

Dan,
Thanks for mentioning some of the problems one faces at long range even with a conical bullet, especially estimating distances and how small errors change drop significantly. 

Another item I'd worry about is flight time.  When I shot 1000 yds the flight time was over 3 seconds.  I don't know the flight time of a 540 bullet at 500 yds, but it would still be huge compared to modern unmentionables.  Maybe pull the trigger, count to 2 mississippi, and wonder how far the elk moved in that amount of time. Even if you estimated distance well, you still have a gut shot animal. I think PRB at 500 is unthinkable.

Quigley shot offhand and the bucket wasn't moving. But then we aren't Quigley either. 
Regards,
Pletch

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Well, on camera I can be as good as Quigley too.  Especially if the camera doesn't have to show me and the bucket all in the same frame. 

[Joc7651]

400 yards with a roundball is laughable at best. I have seen my uncle take a moose in Manitoba at a lasered 157 yards with a .54 caliber roundball from a T/C Renegade. It broke a rib going in on the near side, clipped the top of the heart and punched a hole through both lungs and stopped under the hide on the far side. It walked about 30 yards and stumbled over dead. Round balls tend to penetrate more as velocity drops (to a point). It flattened out a little on the rib going in. This one penetrated about 3 feet of moose. I think the shot was a bit long to take but he also knew his rifle like the back of his hand. I don't think I'd have taken the shot, but he did and it worked. It was about 6 years ago.

[WadePatton]

Y'all realize we're just talking to ourselves.  The OP hasn't ever before or since posted to this forum but for this one, a full four days ago.

And the question was a little "far fetched".   

[Joc7651]

Lol......I see that now.

[Dphariss]

Well, on camera I can be as good as Quigley too.  Especially if the camera doesn't have to show me and the bucket all in the same frame. 

Hey... I taught Quigley to shoot at long range.

Dan

[Dphariss]

Dan,
Thanks for mentioning some of the problems one faces at long range even with a conical bullet, especially estimating distances and how small errors change drop significantly. 

Another item I'd worry about is flight time.  When I shot 1000 yds the flight time was over 3 seconds.  I don't know the flight time of a 540 bullet at 500 yds, but it would still be huge compared to modern unmentionables.  Maybe pull the trigger, count to 2 mississippi, and wonder how far the elk moved in that amount of time. Even if you estimated distance well, you still have a gut shot animal. I think PRB at 500 is unthinkable.

Quigley shot offhand and the bucket wasn't moving. But then we aren't Quigley either. 
Regards,
Pletch

TOF for a heavy 45 cal BP driven bullet is about 1.5 seconds to 500. Modern runs about 1/2 that.

Dan

[Dphariss]

Y'all realize we're just talking to ourselves.  The OP hasn't ever before or since posted to this forum but for this one, a full four days ago.

And the question was a little "far fetched".   

He likely got discouraged if the question was real.
It was a good question and the discussion informative none the less.
It brings into focus, for example, the shooting of General Fraser at 300 yards at Second Saratoga. And just how skilled some of Morgan's  Riflemen were.

Dan

[OldMtnMan]

You don't think it was just a lucky shot Dan? Ever look at a human at 300yds. How could you accurately line up open sights on such a small target?

[WadePatton]

Y'all realize we're just talking to ourselves.  The OP hasn't ever before or since posted to this forum but for this one, a full four days ago.

And the question was a little "far fetched".   

He likely got discouraged if the question was real.
It was a good question and the discussion informative none the less.
It brings into focus, for example, the shooting of General Fraser at 300 yards at Second Saratoga. And just how skilled some of Morgan's  Riflemen were.

Dan

Certainly Dan.  There's a lot of good info here for those who haven't really studied long-range roundball and BP. Thanks for your contributions.

I'm under the impression that the game dept of CO would have made the caliber requirement a tad larger if they had thoughts hunters would be lobbing 'em in from 400. 

[OldMtnMan]

They raised it last year to .54 for elk. I'm sure they feel that requiring open sights would limit long shots. Little did they know what goes through the minds of hunters.

[Daryl]

They raised it last year to .54 for elk. I'm sure they feel that requiring open sights would limit long shots. Little did they know what goes through the minds of hunters.

I don't see 300yards as being MUCH a problem, Pete. When Taylor built my .69, we put a 3-leaf express sight on it. The last leaf was filed for out 300 yard gong, which was 30" round.

That rifle had no trouble hitting that plate, offhand by all of the guys who tried. I could never get anyone to fire a second shot, though, 165gr. 2F does kick a bit. LB hit it, as well as Taylor

and Neil too, iirc. It was not much of a trick- fair hold and sight picture with the front bead - boom*************************clang.

At our Blackwater range, we have 14" x 16" AR500 plates hanging at 20, 300, 385 and 500 metres.  I have hit the 300 meter (328.1yards) plate with my 14 bore rifle several times and even

managed that with a .577 M1861 Enfield with patched round balls.

 Being able to use actual sights set for THAT range helps immensely. 

Thus, trajectory becomes less of a problem - it does, however, reduce the height of the target due to the descending angle of the 'shot'.

[OldMtnMan]

Yes, i'm sure some can be consistent enough to chance a shot that long.

I'm from the school of getting close being more fun.

If the smell of an elk doesn't curl the hairs in my nose. I'm too far away.

[WadePatton]

They raised it last year to .54 for elk. I'm sure they feel that requiring open sights would limit long shots. Little did they know what goes through the minds of hunters.

...
Thus, trajectory becomes less of a problem - it does, however, reduce the height of the target due to the descending angle of the 'shot'.

isn't this what they call the "lobbing it in" effect? 


Also, that's targets, righto-bang them gongs.  But did you take many moose or other large ones out at 300 or 400? 

[bob in the woods]

I think Daryl was responding to the Fraser reference ie shot at 300 yards.  In war, a hit anywhere is deemed a success, whereas you need to be a bit more specific when hunting   

[Daryl]

Exactly - clanging gongs.  Now, I would put a wolf in the same category as the in-battle shot

and most certainly would take that, at 300 or 400yards.

[WadePatton]

Exactly - clanging gongs.  Now, I would put a wolf in the same category as the in-battle shot

and most certainly would take that, at 300 or 400yards.

Full agreement.  I do the same with not so Wile E. coyotes.   

[OldMtnMan]

No kidding. Any hit on a coyote is good.

[bob in the woods]

Coyotes...yes !   My friend and I used to have fun going after groundhogs at long distances with our .54 and ,62 flinters

[Huntschool]

I view coyotes as interactive targets..... nothing more.  The only reason to spend money on researching them is to find better ways to kill them.....  I suspect that, although some folks out West are strapped by the snow flakes and tree huggers, they feel the same way about wolves.... The three s's apply.....

JMHO