Long Range Hunting, 400yd round ball

[Joc7651]

Lol. With the trajectory of a round ball at 400 yards It would fall between the shoulder blades.

[alacran]

Using round ball for taking game at 400 yards is absurd. To even take a shot at a game animal is unethical to say the least.

[Shovelbuck]

Hunt smarter..............not further!

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

As long as someone brought up General Fraser - here's what WIKIPEDIA had about that episode:

Murphy scaled a nearby tree, took careful aim at the extreme distance of 300 yards, and fired four times. The first shot was a close miss, the second grazed the General's horse, and with the third, Fraser tumbled from his horse, shot through the stomach. General Fraser died that night.

This highlights the differences between hunting and combat.  1) General Fraser did not flee after the first miss - not likely to happen with game.  2) General Fraser was gutshot.  Is there anyone here who thinks gutshooting game is something to promote?  3)Murphy did not need to recover General Fraser.

Even with contemporary snipers - the longest recorded kill still involved a couple misses leading up to the hit.  Generally speaking with hunting you need to make the first shot count.

Of course, Wikipedia being what it is - leaves us wondering about the fourth shot.

[OldMtnMan]

General Fraser never thought to duck?

[Daryl]

Using round ball for taking game at 400 yards is absurd. To even take a shot at a game animal is unethical to say the least.

you mean, "at that range" is unethical.

[alacran]

Using round ball for taking game at 400 yards is absurd. To even take a shot at a game animal is unethical to say the least.

you mean, "at that range" is unethical.

Yes Daryl I forgot to put at that range in the second sentence, Sometimes my fingers are way slower than my mind. Sometimes they have a mind of their own.
As far as Tim Murphy goes. Check out " the Myth of Timothy Murphy, Journal of the American Revolution March 25, 2013"

[bob in the woods]

Over 50 responses to "Eagle92" 's  one and only post and nothing from him so far. I think we've been had 

[smokinbuck]

I agree with Bob, where is the original poster? The one thing that is clear, after 3 pages of response, is that it comes down to 2 things( IMHO); ETHICS and ability.
Mark

[WadePatton]

...

Or it could be genuine misunderstanding of external ballistics, nothing wrong with ignorance so long as a fella is ready to learn and shed some of it. Lots of things I don't know about.


Going to be a long Winter if this keeps up.

[Robby]

I agree with Bob, where is the original poster? The one thing that is clear, after 3 pages of response, is that it comes down to 2 things( IMHO); ETHICS and ability.
Mark

Lemme refine it a bit further Smokin, one thing, Ethics!
Robby

[Craig Wilcox]

I "might" try that shot at a 400-yard distant Elk, but only if my 60-mm mortar is working right.

[rich pierce]

Folks, last call on this topic. So far the nays are carrying the day. Seems like a good time to wrap it up.

Going forward let抯 remember to discuss the topic, not the original poster or subsequent contributors. Imagine it抯 a face to face conversation with somebody who is also interested in longrifles.

[Bob Roller]

Learn to hunt,,,,,close.. Fire power will never make up for close,,, I hunted archery before B/P.40 yards max,range,,,HUNT CLOSE.

I heard one old guy say he would get so close he'd have to step back to shoulder
the rifle.Sights on the long rifle are not for long shots and even with Creedmoor
Long Range Muzzle Loader sights the round ball at 400 would have shed most of the
wallop needed for a one shot kill.
Bob Roller

[Hungry Horse]

My grandad who was a hunter his entire life always said long range hunting shots were mostly taken by hunters that didn抰 know how to hunt.

  Hungry Horse

[OldMtnMan]

My grandad who was a hunter his entire life always said long range hunting shots were mostly taken by hunters that didn抰 know how to hunt.

  Hungry Horse

I've taken a lot of flak for saying that over the years. I'd also add that long shots are shooting and close shots are hunting.

[Eagle92]

Wow!
Thanks Guys!!!

Sooooooo, to bring all of this together.....
1- A 400 yd round ball gun CANNOT be built.
2- Maximum range for a round ball is under 200 yds
3- Study the long range guns at friendship in the spring.
4- Take a little more of a moderator role to keep discussion on topic, but this discussion is not for me alone.

Your replys have not fallen on a ghost.
I really appreciate everyone's input, but I have found that I don't learn much with my mouth open.
I wrote and deleted 3 replys when I got my poor little feelings hurt.
I see no reason to defend my hunting ethics, marksmanship, or stalking ability.  I know what I know, I'm here to find out what you know and you have given me that with great efficiency. This forum is a great place to get great answers gleaned from lifetimes of experience.

I originally posted this in the gun building section more or less for the long range shooters.
For many reasons and (situations, on this hunt that I don't particularly like being forced in to) I need to build something that will get me maximum effective range for that "last day of the trip, it's now or never, this is what we practiced all summer for" shot.
I would much rather pop one at 75yds on opening morning knowing that what ever happens on impact is 100% a product of my prowess, buck fever, or hangover.

I don't need to build something that will fit nicely into one of the matches, I just need to satisfy the game warden that my rifle is legal. (and it has to be a flinter because they are friggin' magic)
This being said it really opens up the options to blend new technologies with the beauty and character of the old.
It also opens the door to abominations like camo synthetic stocked flintlocks...... geeeez, who in the?...... what the?....
An improvement to any system in a gun should improve accuracy.
Some things I have been kicking around that are WAY outside the norm are:
-Working in a jeweled trigger. (This may be the hardest.)
-Bedded free floating barrel
-Very fast twist, match grade barrel. sub 1/2 MOA is very achievable.
-Possible solid copper slugs, making the projectile longer, increasing the BC. Of course this would have to be wrapped with something, whether it be pillow ticking or Teflon.

Again, Thanks to everyone for your time and experience.
Every comment is appreciated

[bob in the woods]

If you are serious about this long range hunting idea, [ free floated barrel, fast twist barrel, copper slugs etc ]  there a a couple of things that need be remembered.  1st, copper is lighter than lead, so will lose velocity quicker, unless you make it longer for the caliber. Long range round ball shooters typically use larger calibers for this same reason. Or...you need to go to a bullet type projectile  ie 500 + gr .45 caliber   Muzzle velocity is limited to an extent. Even with the highly evolved long range guns of the day, it was absolutely necessary to know the distance because of the trajectories involved. Sights are also a limiting factor. So...a range finder is required IMO, and beyond 200 yards, I'd want a scope. Something else to consider , which hasn't been mentioned before, is the lack of a fast follow up shot, should you need one. I just don't think that "long range " hunting is practical with the historical muzzleloaders we love. Even the inline folks limit their advertising to 200 yards.  Anyway, if you go ahead with this, I hope you have a place to practice a lot, before you head to the field

[Eagle92]

Thanks Bob

Yes, we all have rangefinders. You are right. Absolutely necessary.
Was thinking copper because you can get a longer projectile for the same weight increasing your BC
Scopes are great, no doubt, but must be open sights pr CO rules.
Follow up shots must be practiced almost as much as shooting itself.
I have a great range. Around 1.5 miles!
Shot almost 500 rounds from my 300wm in preparation. Now some of that was playing the how far can you go game, but our record was a milk jug at 800yds. 600yd milk jug almost every shot, 400yds off of sticks. 300yds off hand. Most of the time. Many scenarios practiced. All scoped
Now this much practice may not be reasonable with a muzzleloader but dry fires are great practice too.
And.... you might as well cut those distances in half for hunting with thin air, heavy breathing, buck fever exc.

[WadePatton]

Eagle#92

Men shoot 1,000 yard competitions with ML and BPC guns.

Those guns exist for target shooting, not hunting. They have done all the stuff you need to get a projectile that far--but it's not hunting. The pill only has to punch the air and the paper.

If you want to study 1,000 yard target guns, that's fine.  I only know a little about those, I'll leave that to those that do. There may be the "tech" you're looking for, all laid out and ready to go. But it's not hunting. It's no more hunting that going to the bush with a class3 and standing behind a shower of scattered shots. 

I'm all for you having a great long distance BP gun.  Get good with it. See what it takes. Do some penetration tests.  Then decide if you want to harass any Elk with it.

A buddy of mine has a 400-yard hunting gun (possible with practice), but it's based on a John Moses Browning cartridge.  And it darn well won't qualify for BP season (nor discussion here).  It's not a flinter!    We're quite limited on the discussions of tech that does not apply to our timeframe at this forum. Helps keep us on topic. 

Hope you get the "opening day" elk at modest range.  Launching a last day "anything goes" shot might not display good sportsmanship, some might say it's disrespectful to the magnificent elk. 

[OldMtnMan]

I know that long range shooting is a sport in itself and a guy can get addicted to it. I'd prefer guys do it for target competition than hunting. If an animal has to be shot. Do it on coyotes.

Elk deserves a more humane shot. The DOW took a survey on elk and came up with the average distance they were killed was under 150yds. This included the rifle season. I'm sure if it was just muzzleloaders the distance would be much shorter.

[bob in the woods]

I should have mentioned that I built a long range [ .45 cal  1 in 18 twist barrel ]  flintlock rifle just to see what it was capable of , and shot it in the 1000 yard B.P. matches    I used paper patched bullets , a false muzzle to aid in loading the bullets consistently , and a drop tube for the powder [ measured to the grain and stored in vials ]  and figured out a couple things .
1st- getting a consistent ignition is imperative to accuracy. 2nd- obtaining the consistency necessary is difficult.
My best results were out to 600 yards, although I did get half decent results out to 1000 , with the greatest variation being elevation. Considering all the variables, a flintlock isn't as accurate at long distance as a percussion . That's my view. Trying both stainless steel, and beryllium type vent liners, I needed to change them every 20 or so shots or else elevation became inconsistent. Humidity was another variable that really affected ignition. Fun and enjoyable when target shooting, but I have to stress again, I firmly believe that a flintlock firearm is at most a 200 yard hunting gun. Build what you want and then take it out and shoot it. You'll most likely come to the same conclusion.

[Eagle92]

Wade:

You are 100% right.

the "hunt" explained.....
We don't like hunting this way, but.....
It is a classic coyote hunt.
High Desert NO trees on the ranch. none, tallest sage brush,24"?
We have deprivation tags.  We aren't allowed in the pinion trees to stalk like any self respecting hunter.
2-3 trucks, 2-3 hunters and a guide per truck.
16,000-20,000 acres of cactus rocks dirt and scrub.
glass until someone sees a small herd and make a move on them.
Shots often taken off of the truck bed
Have watched a 300yd duck walk to hands and knees stalk to get the herd to 300yds where all the elk were watching nervously.  took 2 bulls out of that group.
hoping to switch it up and get a tag that will get us into the forest.  there is so much elk sign on the mountain you have to wear boots because the bull $#@* is so deep.
Even if this isn't exactly the way we would like it, it is highly productive.  An 8 member party usually tags out in 2 days.

Bob:
Thanks for the input on your long range rifle.  I have been snapping pix of those trying not to drool.
humidity eh? I bet so.  It is waaaaaay drier out there.
a watered down version of that would be ideal. something light enough to be shouldered.
I may have said 400yds because it would be nice, but I think 300yds would be plenty to get the job done.

We practice for white tail out to 120yds. After I get done with my experiment on how to almost seal up a pan for torrential rain hunts, I will move to 200yd fun.
What ever happens, it's not going to happen with an inline.
Thanks again!

[WadePatton]

... After I get done with my experiment on how to almost seal up a pan for torrential rain hunts, I will move to 200yd fun...

"sealing" the pan is usually done with grease or tallow, a proven "technology".  carry on.

Also, we has a current thread on the topic: http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=52108.0

[alacran]

Wow!
Thanks Guys!!!

Sooooooo, to bring all of this together.....
1- A 400 yd round ball gun CANNOT be built.
Yes it can, It is called a cannon!