Quality of parts?

[Daryl Pelfrey]

Ive noticed alot of flaws in parts in the lat couple years.Ive got two lock with bad ares in the plate , actual holes and good sized chips missing on the edges. Not trying to bash any of the makers of these parts, just curious. Is this just something you guys consider character in the finished gun? Maybe its always been this way with flaws in some parts.I wouldnt think that the vendors try to move these and hope for no returns. Like I say just curious. If the flaws were to bad i would send them back but so far they are just character marks in my way of thjnking. Kind of blends with  the flaws in my work. LOL

[Angus]

The best components are made by hand. Give it a try.

[M. E. Pering]

Yes, I consider it character... Bad character.  I just inlet a lock that has some flws in the plate.  They are in an inconspicuous place and in no way effect the proper function though, so I decided to go ahead and use it.  A bit of severe pitting around the frizzen area.  Another lock I got in the last couple of years had some deep pits in it in the tail.  I almost returned it, but instead decided to create a moulding that removed the pits, and it came out quite nicely.  Now with brass, I am about to start casting my own, since it does seem that many sand casts I have gotten have been very poor.  Makes me wonder if the caster ever heard of facing sand.  Not certain whether I will investment cast them or sand cast them yet.

But no... I don't use parts with obvious flaws.  Just like an ugly piece of wood will do, flaws detract from the craftsmanship that I am trying to achieve whenever I build a gun.  "Wow, nice work, but..." 

I will add, I have never had a Chambers lock which I had any problem with, cosmetic or otherwise.  Of course I do fine tune the mechanism on every lock I install, but that is just to be expected.

Matt

[bgf]

I needed to cut a double set trigger plate short for one project and in the process discovered bubbles in the casting.  It's not visible and hasn't failed otherwise in several years of use, so I guess it is just cosmetic...

I guess I'd draw the line at a part which failed functionally or where a flaw made my mediocre work look even worse than it is .

[45-110]

i concur, seems like alot of parts/components are of marginal quality. really a shame that we are now in the 21st century and have to settle for it. seems i have to tig weld a lot of stuff to fix sloppy work or poor castings. what i really want to know is when will we see some 3d printed parts to fill the current void of parts "out of stock"
best kw

[rich pierce]

Suppliers of cast parts are captive to foundries.

[Longknife]

I have an original SXS flint marked "Ketland" on the locks, On the inside of one lock you can definitely see flaws where the lock was hand forged but they used it anyway,,,, just say'n… Ed

[EC121]

The various muzzleloading castings are a pretty small part of the foundry's business.  They probably don't get too worked up about the QC or the alloys used in casting.  The sloppy work comes from the people assembling the parts for the sales companies.  If you had 100 locks to assemble on piece work, at some point your concentration might slip a little bit to get the job done.   To modify a drag racer's saying.  Precision(speed) costs money.  How precise(fast) to we want to be.

[Dan Fruth]

The foundry in Columbus Ohio that cast parts for MANY suppliers was sold, and the new owners are not interested in catering to our trade...This is bad news for Ohio suppliers of ML parts...locks, triggers...you name it....And the situation isn't much better else where...Just my 2c...........Kinda nice to have a machine shop in the basement!

[Mike Brooks]

I don't know where or what parts you guys are talking about but I'm not getting any bum parts. Also, check my web site for any brass castings that are "out of stock", I decided to quit complaining and come up with a solution. I only have about 1/3rd of the parts shown that I will eventually be offering. If there is something you need I may have it even if you don't see it.

[Jim Kibler]

Good topic that is very relevant to our business.  The idea of "quality" is certainly relative and a personal thing.  My view is that the quality of muzzleloading parts has been abysmal with a few exceptions that are decent quality.  When I speak of quality, I speak of not only fit and finish but also of design. 

Part of the issue has been what the average consumer is willing to spend.   You can only spend so much time on something and still make a profit.  It's not easy.

Foundries have been very problematic to our business.  We've used two foundries and are in the process of starting to use another.  There is big risk with changes but at some point you have to pull the trigger when delivery time and quality become unbarable. 

To take this a step further, we're working to do more ourselves and outsource less.  We have a handful of suppliers and while a few have been very good, many have let us down.  It seems nobody cares like you do about your business.   The items we produce and control are not a problem for us to maintain quality and a stock of.

Moving forward with technology is part of the answer.  The process we use to make stocks is amazing.  Hard to develop and extremely expensive to set-up, but I think the results speak for themselves.  All of this requires significant risk and investment.  Few have the means, ability and desire to undertake things like this.

As I mentioned, were trying to rely on vendors less and less.  An example is the double set triggers for our mountain rifle kits.  These have historically been made from castings.  Within a few weeks we will have a process where these are 100% machined in house.  Not easy to accomplish, but it's doable and the quality is fantastic.  We'll be looking forward to sharing these soon.

We have big goals here.  It will take some time, but we'll get there.  One little step at a time...

[Huntschool]

Just a thought......

We have come a long way from the late 60' and even early 70's (and certainly earlier) with parts.  I am sure many here remember the old sand cast stuff that was as "rough as a file" and require a "blacksmiths arm" and good files to produce a finished product while hoping there were no inclusions/faults hidden below the rough surface.

Our current foundry casting work in my opinion has come a long way but as said there is a quality/quantity situation that is in play with the foundries.  Our industry does not deal in big enough quantities to keep some of them happy.  Its all about dollars.

I hope I live long enough to see this situation improved.  With todays metallurgy and computer driven manufacturing I suspect eventually some things will change but, as Mr. Kibler so accurately stated, it takes time and money.

[Mike Brooks]

Nothing wrong with sand castings. After all, it's what was used on all of these old guns.

[Bob Roller]

Nothing wrong with sand castings. After all, it's what was used on all of these old guns.

Back when I started,sand castings were all that were available and most of those
came from Ken Roethlesberger in Ohio. Theodore (Ted) Cole was probably the
first to offer investment cast steel parts in locks but the quality was lacking.
After that,Chester Shoults made a lock that was decent quality from all cast
parts.The molds for these were a masterpiece of milled and polished aluminum
cavities and these parts are still available from Jerry Devaudreuil in Wooster Ohio.
For several years I have used the external parts for 3 L&R locks,The Manton,Ashmore and Egg
and NO problems with quality. I do make my own mechanisms and have for over 50 years
no matter what externals I used. I have no idea as to how many Shoults and Maslin locks
I have made plus a Twigg (Not the Davis Twigg).Also have used the Chambers Late Ketland
externals with a linked mechanism.Another Ketland was also made by me and I don't know
about the parts now.
My opinion,for what it's worth tells me that muzzle loading guns after the revival in 1933
and the advent of the NMLRA were never oriented to quality parts and IF someone offered
them and asked to be paid what they were worth that meant GOODBYE. I would like to
know how many FINE craftsmen turned away from the muzzle loading sport because of this.
I got into making parts and pieces for old cars and forgot about the guns until I "retired"
in 1998. The Germans were the ones that got me back I to it because their attitude was
NOT like our guys.I don't make many locks or triggers now and if I do I WILL be paid for
the 109 foot walk to the shop to make them.

Bob Roller

[Bob Roller]

One thing I forgot was this: In 1933 the country was in a deep financial spasm
known as "The Great Depression" and money was scarce.I think each of the
original founding members chipped in 50 cents to get it rolling and the fact it
did as well as it did is a marvel.Powell Crosley Jr.was a wealthy man who was an
early supporter of this shooting revival and made radios and later a subcompact car
under his name,the Crosley.It was last made in 1952. Bill Large said Crosley had a
big,flashy car with a German name that cost $18,000.It was a Duesenberg and I have
seen it up close at Auburn,Indiana.
Land was bought in Friendship,Indiana and the growth started.Slowly but it was
growing.My first trip was with NMLRA founder E.M.Farris.Rt 50 was a two lane highway
and State Rt 62 was only recently paved. NO covered firing line until 1959 as I recall
and commercial row was tents and the trunks of cars lined up.
Few new parts were available and most shot rerifled or good condition old guns.
In pistol matches I saw modern big frame S&W's converted to percussion for
competition and I used an original Remington 44 in good shape I bought from
Mr.Farris for $25.Never won but had fun with it.
At one time the NMLRA had about 26,000 members but now I don't know how many.
I am one of the few still alive that knew any of the founders of this organization and
I am glad I did.
This has little or nothing to do with the cost of parts currently but our economy is
much stronger now and 50 cents isn't precious and for that matter $50 isn't either.

Bob Roller

[45-110]

i too grew up with sand castings, and to this day don't mind them one bit if........... they are oversize and poured from a properly gated pattern. the "extra meat" allows any tweeking or correction needed. furniture sand casting is certainly reflective of the era. you would be surprised at the quality of the finish attainable by selecting the right sand.
secondly, i just cannot warm up to cast lock parts, yes i have used them for many years, but frequently have had to throw some of the internals in the trash and just machine or forge a replacement.
kw

[G_T]

If one were to use Delft clay for sand casting the finish ought to be very nice. But it is a very fine clay and is chosen for reproducing detail, such as in one-off jewelry parts. Delft is pricy. Petrobond (IIRC) is cheaper and not as good, but still better than most other casting sand as I understand it. I haven't used it. I don't think I have enough Delft to do something the size of a triggerguard but I think it could do a very good job with some thought towards the sprue and gates.

Gerald

[rich pierce]

Delft clay casting tutorial:  http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=45872.0

[Daryl Pelfrey]

 I know nothing about metal urgey,, machi e tool ,, or carving stocks. My hat is off to all of you craftsman and to Mr. Killer for his pursuit of quality of parts ad guns to the Muzzeloading industry/world.
Thankyou guys so much oh yes and not just Kibler but all of the med who strive for the highest quality.

[gusd]

When I started building in the late 70's all the butt pl's & T grds. were sand cast.
I still have some with the price marked on them: $3.00 ea.
Some were good , some not so much. All req'd much filing. Bought many from Marion Adams.
Gus