Author Topic: Shot patches  (Read 1851 times)

Offline Mike Lyons

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Shot patches
« on: December 10, 2018, 03:50:23 PM »
I’ve been told that you look for cut patches.  Here are a couple of my patches.  What should I be focusing on when looking at them?  Are these cut or just frayed?


Offline Flint62Smoothie

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Re: Shot patches
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2018, 04:34:45 PM »
Look perfectly normal to me! Once I had perfected my load (in a smoothie) I shot & reshot the same patch 7 times before I gave up!
All of my muzzleloaders will shoot into one ragged hole ALL DAY LONG ... it's just the 2nd or 3rd & other shots that tend to open up my groups ... !

Offline EC121

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Re: Shot patches
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2018, 05:17:27 PM »
As long as they aren't cut or blown to pieces, they are usually OK.   Cuts could be the crown or rifling.  Burned cuts could be gas cutting from a thin patch leaking.  Blown to pieces is bad leaking and/or rotten or cheap loose weave material.  Depending on the density of the weave of the cloth, you will see more or less fraying at the edges.  I have some really dense cotton awning canvas that barely frays.  Good tough patching but thick.   
Brice Stultz

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Shot patches
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2018, 05:48:10 PM »
Edges always fray. If no cuts in the grooves you should be good.
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Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Shot patches
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2018, 05:49:26 PM »
  Are these cut or just frayed?

Just frayed.

Offline Black Jaque Janaviac

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Re: Shot patches
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2018, 10:08:57 PM »
I'd be pleased with patches that look like that.  The fraying on the edges happens after it leaves the barrel. 

If you look closely on those patches you can see the land-groove pattern forming a ring (or hexagon) on your patch.  Your gun has 6 grooves/lands right?  When you see patch damage that is within the ring of the rifling pattern, then your accuracy may suffer. 

Offline Daryl

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Re: Shot patches
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2018, 10:19:43 PM »
I’ve been told that you look for cut patches.  Here are a couple of my patches.  What should I be focusing on when looking at them?  Are these cut or just frayed?



What I am seeing, Vet., when I enlarge the picture of the patches, is scorching running out to the edge from the grooves. This shows the patch, although not cut or burnt, is 'at the edge' or fairly close.

An increase in powder charge, by 20gr. or so, will likely fry them. You could actually test that premise.

The brown bottoms also shows high temp compared to the lube you are using as well as the white marks show good hard contact from the tops of the lands.

The brown flame scorch marks from not quite a tight enough fit in the grooves, is easily seen/observed in the middle patch on the left & right and bottom right as well.

I would be interested to hear what powder charge you are using and what calibre.
The reason is I am seeing a little more fraying than I am used to, or - the patches are a bit smaller than what I use for 'that' calibre, in ratio.
Daryl

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Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Shot patches
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2018, 10:51:14 PM »
To me it looks like the ball was at or just below the muzzle when the patch was cut. If so you could seat the ball just a little lower or into the muzzle before cutting and see if that helps with what looks like a lot of fraying. Might also try more or different lube.

Offline Mike Lyons

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Re: Shot patches
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2018, 11:45:18 PM »
Those are from 440 balls with .018 pillow ticking shot out of a 45 caliber, 42" strait Colerain barrel with 65 gr of Goex. I haven't mic'ed the pillow ticking to see what it actually is.  I bought some .010, .015 and .018 and the .018 seems to group the best.  I have been cutting it right at the top of the ball due to ignorance of not knowing any different. 

Offline Daryl

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Re: Shot patches
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2018, 12:10:53 AM »
It's working just fine, don't worry about that.  I simply see the patch as not being quite thick enough. It would be better and quite likely
more accurate if you used .445" balls with the same patch. Being 2 1/2 though larger PER side, they should tighten up your groups.  In the
.45, I used mostly .445" balls and 10 oz denim that I measure at .022" to ..025" thick.  I use that material with every gun I have, except for
the .69, which prefers even thicker patching.
I have used the same patch, for a 5 shot group, picking it up, re-lubing it and shooting over and over. The group matched groups exactly, that
were shot with new patches.
Indeed, when Taylor and I tested his re-worked Hawken, we used recovered patches for all the shooting. Mind you, I was not used to this rifle,
however the sights were 1/2 decent.

The second line of targets below, were with the shortened barrel and re-claimed/re-covered .034" patches I had sitting in my tackle box. after
shooting them in the .60 cal rifle, they were still useable. The grooves were very deep in this barrel, so we used a .595" ball and the .034" patches.
Accuracy, with 0 load development was fairly good
The first line of targets was shot with the same gun, but before 1 pound of steel was cut off the barrel(shortened). Note accuracy is about the same, however we used 85gr. 2F and a .022" canvas patch with the first run of targets. The patches had scorch marks & some gas-cutting which showed some blow-by, but not enough, as in
your .45 rifle, to burn up the patch completely.
Note the best accuracy was about duplicated between the 85.0gr. load and the 125gr. charge. Interesting.
A further test should have been carried out using the thicker patch and the 85gr. 2f load.




Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Mike Lyons

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Re: Shot patches
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2018, 12:18:05 AM »
Daryl,  I don't know a whole lot about flintlocks but I do know that getting groups like that require a little more than the correct patch/ ball combination.  Thank you for all of your advice and I'll keep experimenting.  Those are nice targets.

Offline Daryl

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Re: Shot patches
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2018, 12:48:34 AM »
This was a cap-lock, seems to me.  This was a cap lock, which I find easier, but not necessarily more accurate.
My .45 and .40 flinters have both shot much smaller groups at 50 yards, as-has my .69, but it is a cap gun. I am sure
that with a bit of testing, I could get this Hawken to shoot much smaller groups as well. Just some fiddling needed
and getting used to the rifle.
The after picture on the left, before picture on the right. It has a 17" pull & 36" bl. Taylor shortened both stock and barrel/under rib and per-positioned the pipes.
Nice job.

Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Daryl

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Re: Shot patches
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2018, 04:45:26 AM »
I'll keep experimenting.

Vet - that is exactly what I would expect.  Keep at it - BP shooting is actually a learning curve.
If you keep at it, you will/should be happy with the results. None of us are permanently happy
of course- there is always more experimentation that could be done. We are never truly finished
with it. Guns themselves, change over time, as do our eyes.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Joc7651

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Re: Shot patches
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2018, 04:46:58 AM »
I've seen a lot worse. Try .020-.022" patches and see what you get.