Lock tuning?

[Martin S.]

There was a guy on this board that would modify locks to make them look more period correct.

Something about the pan, IIRC. I can't remember the term, but the process was quite involved, and he also tuned the locks.

Anyway, I have a lock that seems to have a slow lock time, and I'd like to contact him and see if he can improve it by tuning it.

If someone can provide his name, I would appreciate it.

Also, perhaps this will confuse the thread, but the problem might be in the touch hole.  Is there a correct diameter size for the touch hole?  If so, how big?

Thanks,

Martin

[Stophel]

You have two entirely different things going on there.  The lock and the touch hole.  Is your lock really slow, or do you have a "fuze effect" with your touch hole? (I personally have never witnessed the "fuze effect".  For me, if the touch hole is too small, it simply won't go off reliably.)  What lock do you have?

A flint lock can be pretty dang fast, but it's not going to be totally instantaneous.  For those not used to it, it can be disconcerting.

[Martin S.]

I agree, I probably have two problems, possibly three.

I don't know who made the lock.  I can take a pic and post it and see if you can figure it out.

I have 3 flintlock rifles.  Two of them go off reliably.  I mean, 97 times out of 100, they ignite the main charge.  I rarely have a misfire with either of these two guns.  They go "ka-pow" and while there is a slight delay, it is very short, maybe a fraction of a second.

The third rifle is a nightmare.  It fires maybe on one out of five attempts.  I load all three rifles the same.  I charge them the same.  The lock on the third rifle seems "slower", but it might be my imagination.  Every time I have a misfire, I pick the touch hole.  Sometimes it works, sometimes I get another misfire.  Today at the range, when I pulled the lock to full cock, it did not stay in full cock and instead released and the gun fired.  After that, I pulled the lock to both full and half cock and it would not consistently stay in either position.  With the lock out of the gun, while cleaning it tonight, the lock would stay in both positions, so I think there might be some excess wood involved, as the trigger is not a set trigger.  So I have that issue now as well.

The rifle is a good one.  It appears to be of high quality, but I can't get the maker on the phone as I bought it through TOW.  Even though I have his number, he does not answer.

I really don't know what to do.  I was going to try to get the lock professionally tuned, which would eliminate one possible problem.

Another avenue is to replace the touch hole liner, which I have never done before, so I would need some help with that.  Or just drill it out to whatever size folks here suggest.

I am going to attend the Canter's Cave gun building class.  I will bring the gun there and maybe the instructors can give me some advice.

But I thought I would try to eliminate some possible problems first.

It is frustrating, as I paid good money for the rifle and I cannot get it to perform like it should.  The other two rifles work great, so I know I am not a complete idiot, though perhaps a partial one.

[B.Barker]

The other thing is the "touch hole". Do you have a vent liner or just a hole drilled through the barrel wall. A liner made correctly will speed up ignition or if you have a drilled hole you can get a coning tool and cone from the inside of the barrel.

[smylee grouch]

A couple of things to check. Make sure your rear lock bolt is not rubbing against the back side of the cock when it is screwed in all the way. Make sure your trigger bar isn't holding the sear or preventing it from going into full cock. Check the sear spring to be sure it is in right and strong enough to push sear into full cock. Make sure the touch hole is 1/16 dia. or a few thousands larger. These are a few to check, others will think of more.

[Stophel]

Lock speed won't have anything to do with the gun going off.  If you get sparks and have a flash in the pan, then your trouble is with the touch hole.

Ok, one problem at a time.  The touch hole.  Do you have a liner with a screwdriver slot in it?  These usually suck pretty bad, with a shouldered counterbore inside that gunks up with crud pretty badly.  They need to be changed for a White lightning liner, or reworked so that they are coned better on the inside.  But before you change the touch hole liner, you can try drilling it out.  The touch hole itself is likely to be rather small.  Probably 1/16".  If you can put the barrel in a drill press, that would be best, but it can be drilled out in increments to larger sizes.  Using numbered drill bits and fractional bits. I don't use touch hole liners, myself, but use a drilled hole and coned on the inside.  I usually end up with a 5/64" hole.  Just start small, and go up a little at a time and keep trying the gun until you get reliable ignition.  Drilling the hole out is simple, and easy to do if you're careful.

Once you get ignition problems out of the way, then you can look at the lock.  You may find that your lock works perfectly fine, once you can make it reliably go bang.

You seem to have trigger/sear interference, keeping it from going into the notches.  I would dare say that the gunmaker was too concerned with getting rid of the dreaded "slop" in the trigger, and made things too tight.  Wood expands and contracts and moves around, and now the trigger won't let the sear fall completely into the notches.  You could also simply have something interfering with the forward motion of the trigger, which is holding it back enough to cause problems.  Clean things up so that you have a little more forward motion of the trigger, and it should solve the problem, no matter the cause... of course, you may have that horrible "trigger rattle"... but people 250 years ago didn't seem to worry too much about that. 

[Martin S.]

The other thing is the "touch hole". Do you have a vent liner or just a hole drilled through the barrel wall. A liner made correctly will speed up ignition or if you have a drilled hole you can get a coning tool and cone from the inside of the barrel.

I have a vent liner, and it appears to be stainless steel.

[Martin S.]

A couple of things to check. Make sure your rear lock bolt is not rubbing against the back side of the cock when it is screwed in all the way. Make sure your trigger bar isn't holding the sear or preventing it from going into full cock. Check the sear spring to be sure it is in right and strong enough to push sear into full cock. Make sure the touch hole is 1/16 dia. or a few thousands larger. These are a few to check, others will think of more.

Thanks, Smylee, I'll look at those things.

[rich pierce]

1) is pan ignition reliably successful?  If so, it’s not the lock that is causing inconsistent firing of the gun.  Could have an issue with the vent of the breech and chamber area.

2) is pan ignition inconsistent?  If so, the lock needs tuning.

3) do you sometimes experience the pan does not ignite, and other times you get good pan ignition but the gun does not fire?  Then you have problems with the lock and the vent or chamber area. 

Please share pictures of the lock and vent.

[Stophel]

Yeah, let's see the lock and gun..... if you've had it for a while, it could be one of mine! 

[Martin S.]

Lock speed won't have anything to do with the gun going off.  If you get sparks and have a flash in the pan, then your trouble is with the touch hole.

Ok, one problem at a time.  The touch hole.  Do you have a liner with a screwdriver slot in it?  These usually suck pretty bad, with a shouldered counterbore inside that gunks up with crud pretty badly.  They need to be changed for a White lightning liner, or reworked so that they are coned better on the inside.  But before you change the touch hole liner, you can try drilling it out.  The touch hole itself is likely to be rather small.  Probably 1/16".  If you can put the barrel in a drill press, that would be best, but it can be drilled out in increments to larger sizes.  Using numbered drill bits and fractional bits. I don't use touch hole liners, myself, but use a drilled hole and coned on the inside.  I usually end up with a 5/64" hole.  Just start small, and go up a little at a time and keep trying the gun until you get reliable ignition.  Drilling the hole out is simple, and easy to do if you're careful.

Once you get ignition problems out of the way, then you can look at the lock.  You may find that your lock works perfectly fine, once you can make it reliably go bang.

You seem to have trigger/sear interference, keeping it from going into the notches.  I would dare say that the gunmaker was too concerned with getting rid of the dreaded "slop" in the trigger, and made things too tight.  Wood expands and contracts and moves around, and now the trigger won't let the sear fall completely into the notches.  You could also simply have something interfering with the forward motion of the trigger, which is holding it back enough to cause problems.  Clean things up so that you have a little more forward motion of the trigger, and it should solve the problem, no matter the cause... of course, you may have that horrible "trigger rattle"... but people 250 years ago didn't seem to worry too much about that. 

Stophel, I have a liner, but I don't know what kind.  The screwdriver slot has been filed away, so I am not sure how to remove it.

I think you are right, that it is the wood expansion/contraction causing the lock to not stay in position, as that has not happened until today.

I do have a question for you.  If you don't use a liner, and drill a hole in the barrel, how to your cone it from the back side?  I am unfamiliar with that process.

[Martin S.]

1) is pan ignition reliably successful?  If so, it’s not the lock that is causing inconsistent firing of the gun.  Could have an issue with the vent of the breech and chamber area.

2) is pan ignition inconsistent?  If so, the lock needs tuning.

3) do you sometimes experience the pan does not ignite, and other times you get good pan ignition but the gun does not fire?  Then you have problems with the lock and the vent or chamber area. 

Please share pictures of the lock and vent.

I'll try to get pics posted later tonight.

I'd say that 4 out of 5 times, I get a flash in the pan, but the gun does not fire.  The 5th time I don't even get a flash in the pan.  The 6th time, everything works as it should and the gun fires.

I am thinking the problem might be with the touch hole, as others have suggested, but I am not sure.

[Martin S.]

OK, here are the pics of the lock, I'll have to take a pic of the touch hole later.

Any idea who made this lock?  The only marking is the number "23".

[Stophel]

Well, there's somebody whose name I don't recall that makes a proper touch hole coning tool.  I've been using the finishing nail coning tools I make myself, which work surprisingly well.  They do break easily, and don't last long, but they take but little time and effort to make.

If you have a filed smooth stainless touch hole liner, odds are it's a White Lightning liner.  I'm wondering if there isn't a problem with the breechface...  Perhaps the liner is back too far and the breech face isn't notched out right or something...  You may or may not be able to tell anything by looking down the bore with a light, or feeling through the touch hole with a drill bit or something...  If so, you may simply require the services of a flintlock gunsmith to pull the breechplug and take care of whatever problems there may be there.

The lock is a Chambers "Golden Age" lock with a Siler cock..... or a Siler lock with a Golden Age lockplate and frizzen spring....   Either way, it's basically a Siler.  The lock should be relatively fast and trouble free.

[Martin S.]

Hmmm...

If it is one of those problems, I may need a professional to fix it, as I am not sure I want to tackle removing the breech, as I have never done that before, and, frankly, wouldn't know if what I was looking at was correct or not.

I'll try to get a pic of the touch hole area up in a few minutes.  Thanks for the lock ID.  I know Chambers makes a good lock.

The rifle was made by J. E. Brown, who does not post on this board, but makes a beautiful rifle. I have no complaints on the workmanship of the rifle, I am just having problems getting it to fire on a consistent basis.

[rich pierce]

It’s mostly your vent or crud down in the breech. 

Do you flush when cleaning with the vent submerged?  That usually cleans out the area well.

Do you pick the vent after loading and before firing?

[Martin S.]

I have been cleaning with a patch as I do not wish to remove this barrel every time I clean the gun.  I clean the other guns the same way with no problems.

I have picked before attempting to shoot and sometimes it works and sometimes it does not.

Here is a pic of the vent:

[Martin S.]

How does one remove a vent that has had the screw driver slot filed away?

How does one replace it with a new vent, and then file the slot away without having to rebrown the barrel?  Or is rebrowning the barrel just part of the procedure?

I will try to determine the size of the touch hole, but probably not tonight.

[Stophel]

You have a plenty big touch hole, and I can't see how the breechplug would be interfering with the cone much, if at all.  Yeah, surely it's just a problem of crud in there.  That thing should be going off like a centerfire.

You need water to wash it all out.  When I'm in the shop, I use one of the clamp on tube thingies that goes over the touch hole so that I can put the end of the tube in a bucket of water and swoosh water back and forth with a tow worm or jag and patch and get it all washed out clean.  In the field, without the clamp on thingy, I prop the gun up with the lock out, so that the touch hole is pointing down, spit some water into the barrel, and swoosh it out through the touch hole to clean it out.  It's gotta be CLEAN.  Also, when you've put the gun away and oiled it up, you need to thoroughly clean out the excess oil before you load and shoot again. Oil will sure stop up a touch hole. 

I don't know, the breechplug MAY be intersecting with the touch hole liner just a little bit, and if it's not notched out enough, you may have a little cranny there for gunk to start accumulating, but the gunmaker appears to have done a pretty good job otherwise, I doubt he'd let the breechplug interfere any like that...

[M. E. Pering]

I have seen several of J. Eddie Brown's guns on TOW, and he seems to consistently use White Lighnin' vent liners, so I bet this is what you have here.  As far as removing it, there are a couple of ways to go.  You can use a Dremel and cut a slot in it and hope to get it out.  I myself have some reverse twist drills that seem to do the job, unless it is really seized up.  I think I got my drills at Harbor Freight.  From your pic, it doesn't look like that liner is interfering with the breech plug though.  What is the width of that barrel flat?

Matt

[Mauser06]

Do you get good Sparks???


Looking at the inside edge of the frizzen and the barrel, there seems to be contact.   The frizzen might not be opening properly. 



If the pan lines up with that touch hole you should have no issues as long as it's sparking good. 

[Martin S.]

When I first put a flint in it, it was set too far to the left, and I scratched the barrel.  I have corrected that problem.

[Martin S.]

It’s mostly your vent or crud down in the breech. 

Do you flush when cleaning with the vent submerged?  That usually cleans out the area well.

Do you pick the vent after loading and before firing?

OK, I bought one of those things with the O-ring that you clamp to the barrel over the touch hole and you lower the tube into a bucket of water.  I had never used it, but I dug it out tonight.

I got a fresh clean bucket of water and swished it quite a bit.  Good news is the water stayed clear.  But, I did get some more crud on my patch when I ran several patches through it again.

I think this gun does have round bottom rifling, although it is hard to tell as it has been coned quite a bit.

Perhaps I need to use a thicker cleaning patch.

I usually use oil on a patch at the very end of cleaning it.  Perhaps I am getting oil down in the touch hole that way.

I read somewhere on this board about people storing their guns muzzle down.  Perhaps I need to be doing that, although it does not seem to affect my other guns.

When I first get ready to fire a percussion gun, I pop a couple of caps to clear the oil from the chamber. 

Is there something equivalent that I should be doing before I load a flintlock?

[Martin S.]

I have seen several of J. Eddie Brown's guns on TOW, and he seems to consistently use White Lighnin' vent liners, so I bet this is what you have here.  As far as removing it, there are a couple of ways to go.  You can use a Dremel and cut a slot in it and hope to get it out.  I myself have some reverse twist drills that seem to do the job, unless it is really seized up.  I think I got my drills at Harbor Freight.  From your pic, it doesn't look like that liner is interfering with the breech plug though.  What is the width of that barrel flat?

Matt

The width of the barrel flat is 7/16.

[WKevinD]

I believe you have two issues, #1- over tightening the the upper lock bolt causing the frizzen drag (and possibly gouging the backside of the hammer) #2- improper cleaning, causing crud buildup at the breech.

Kevin