Instructing new shooters

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

I've seen this before with new shooters and I've never really been able to figure out what they are doing wrong, so I can't really advise them on how to correct it.

Without photos it's kind of difficult but I'll describe it as best I can. 

My daughter (12 yr old) holds up a T/C Cherokee and tries to line up the sights.  Butt is on her shoulder, hands are place correctly, but she brings her head down to the stock in a most contorted, unnatural way.  I had her switch arms (we figured out she's right-handed but left-eyed) still has a weird position.  Told her to lift her shoulder up, better but still, just unnatural.  Her head is way back towards the butt, so her cheek doesn't rest on the comb. 

Is it the gun? or am I not instructing her right?

[smylee grouch]

Does she place the gun on the shoulder or with a some what hooked but does she mount the gun with the butt between shoulder and bicep?

[J.E. Moore]

Maybe be a combination of things, lenght of pull, weight and learning new motor skills. Have you helped support the rifle to see if that helps? I've noticed with some youngens that they try to combat the weight by placing there head towards the buttplate and arch there back to brace the muzzle weight.

[rich pierce]

I think kids sometimes back away from the muzzle instead of leaning into it.

[yellowhousejake]

Kids are funny when it comes to shooting offhand. Their bodies are very different than an adults as far as proportion. If I were built like a 12 year old my arms would be 3 inches shorter and I would wear a 12 1/2 hat size. In my experience only, kids struggle the most with muzzle weight. We tend to try and overcome that by shortening the stock when we really should be shortening the barrel. I have seen hundreds of kids who could drill center and had an excellent position, when shooting prone. Make them stand up, and they look exactly like you describe.

Kids, and many small women, always tend to rare back when shooting a rifle offhand. The reason is center of balance on the rifle. When we shorten the stock, the center of balance gets moved farther away from them because the relationship of the muzzle to the breech has not changed. If anything, we removed weight from the butt and made the muzzle seem even heavier. Nearly all youth rifles are very poorly designed. In my opinion.

To teach her a proper offhand position I would have her shoot the rifle supported. You could try a photo tripod or a set of shooting sticks to rest the rifle on. This way she can get a proper, and comfortable, cheek weld providing a correct sight picture. The arm strength to hold the rifle unsupported will come with time. Before that day, she can carry a single stick and will quickly learn to hold the forearm and stick together in the field once she knows how to hold the rifle correctly.

Just my 2 cents.

DAve

[flembo]

Hello folks I am a new member although I have been lurking in the shadows for several months. This topic struck a note with me prompting me to register so that I could reply. I to am right handed and left eyed and I also used to hold a firearm as your daughter does, and my dad and others were always trying to correct me but we didn't know what the problem was.Some time around the age of 9 or 10 we discovered the problem and I began learning ways to get around it. I remember laying in bed at night practicing closing my left eye leaving my right eye open for hours on end, I could easily close my right eye with my left left eye open. I also put tape on the left lens of an old pair of dads safety glasses, that worked ok until I finally mastered opening my left eye alone. To this day If I try to sight a gun with both eyes open I see only the left side of the gun as I suspect your daughter does as well.  If you sight your gun as you normally do then close your right eye without moving your head I believe you will see the gun as your daughter does. As a child I was heck bent on shooting a gun like right handed right eyed people did and I was persistent in my practicing for months on end and it was years before it felt natural. When I was high school age I was on a rifle team and did pretty well, I competed with the team on the state level for several years. With hard work she can beat it if she wants to on her own, and maybe an eye doctor could have some suggestions, I think 60 yrs ago the way I did it was probably the only option.   Good luck with your daughter and I hope this helps.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Hey, wow, thanks Flembo!

Just curious.  Why didn't you just shoot lefthanded?

[OldMtnMan]

I was going to ask that too. I lost the sight in my right eye and switched to LH shooting. It feels very natural now.

[flembo]

I have tried shooting left handed but never could be comfortable . I am sure if I had been determined to shoot left handed when I was young I probably could have mastered that. I can now wink with both eyes so that's another plus   LOL.  Now that you have me thinking about it I can only say the hours I spent practicing while in bed couldn't have been done with a gun, I would think you would have to practice that while holding a gun left handed. I guesses I made a choice as a 9 or 10 yr. old boy right or wrong who knows.   Again good luck with your daughter and keep her shootin. BTW I was a part time Police Officer for many yrs. and we had to go thru firearms training and qualify every yr. with hand guns and shotgun, and one of the things we had to do is shoot weak handed.

[OldMtnMan]

It would have been easier if I was a youngster when I switched. It was 11 years ago when I was 65 when I switched. I was hunting and shooting RH for 58 years when I lost my right eye.

I can't say it was easy but there was no way I was going to give up hunting. I shouldered the gun 400-500 time s a day until it felt good. Then I started to shoot. I only shoot offhand which made it a bit harder. We can do anything if we set our mind to it.

[flembo]

400 to 500 times a night in bed with my old shotgun wouldn't have gone over well with mom. LOL

[OldMtnMan]

Don't wait until you're in bed.

[WadePatton]

Cross-dominance was my first thought as well. Have taught a few young ones and that's the first thing we do is find their dominant eye.  Last kid I caught "crossing over" had been shooting for some time, turns out his pop is "opposite cross-dominant".  That's a thing right? 

Good luck with her.

[Standing Bear]

If I read correctly the original post tried both and left handed shooting posit to no avail.  The young shooter wasn’t crossing over he was holding his head toward the back of the stock.

That is caused by too long a trigger pull for a smaller person.

[shifty]

  I saw a lady hunter on TV shooting a rifle right handed but she placed her cheek over so far on the stock that she was looking through the scope with her left eye.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Thanks guys!

I had her shoulder a gun last night.  Told her to lean forward, that fixed it!  The gun was plenty light so she had no need to arc her back backwards. 

Took her squirrel hunting today.  No score.  We were seeing squirrels, but it was a race against the chill getting to our bones vs. getting a passable shot.  I left her for a bit to check out another area.  Came back and she was all excited telling me about how one came up, but she couldn't get her gun up before it ran off.  Quite fun to see the excitement in her eye!

[WadePatton]

Thanks guys!

I had her shoulder a gun last night.  Told her to lean forward, that fixed it!  The gun was plenty light so she had no need to arc her back backwards. 

Took her squirrel hunting today.  No score.  We were seeing squirrels, but it was a race against the chill getting to our bones vs. getting a passable shot.  I left her for a bit to check out another area.  Came back and she was all excited telling me about how one came up, but she couldn't get her gun up before it ran off.  Quite fun to see the excitement in her eye!

Congrats!

[Sharpsman]

Oft times the length of pull is much too long for the youngsters and it puts them into a contorted position! I've taught all of my grandkids marksmanship and before they ever fired the first shot we had 'workouts' with the rifle teaching that the head needs to remain as upright as possible with the cheek rolled over or atop the comb of the stock. I've seen the excessively leaned look many times for first time shooters or those that haven't been taught the correct manner! Larkin is dry firing here. When shooting she was muffs and safety glasses!

Untitled by Sharps Man, on Flickr

[OldMtnMan]

I've seen adults do the same leaned back, contorted neck position when they were new to shooting a rifle.

[Daryl]

Flembo, being wrong handed to your dominant eye is more common than you might think.  Too, there are those of us who have "sometimes" cross dominance
 That being  if I sight both eyes open with open sights, I see a "weak" set of sights and target  not strong but weak. As I am about to shoot, all of a sudden, I am looking at the left side of the gun, as my left eye has taken over.
If I maintain looking it might bounce back in a few seconds or not. Closing, then reopening both eyes will have me back to my normal right eye dominance. WEIRD. Early on, when a kid, I learned to shoot and sight with my left eye closed.  If shooting running game with scope  both eyes open. If shooting "flying" game, both eyes open only looking at the 'target'.
Having to close my left eye has not hurt my shooting very much, I feel.

[retired fella]

my grandson who is right handed has a dominate left eye and has always shot a rifle left handed and does a pretty fair job of it. 

[oldtravler61]

  One thing I learned a long time ago. A rifle needs to fit you like a fine shotgun. Trigger pull, balance is everything. Take the gun, any gun put it in the crook of your elbow see where your index finger first line lines up. Very hard to shoot a gun that is uncomfortable for the shooter. I too am left I dominate but shoot left or right hand. Both feel very natural to me. My Dad always said I was an odd duck...!   Lol. Oldtravler

[OldMtnMan]

  One thing I learned a long time ago. A rifle needs to fit you like a fine shotgun. Trigger pull, balance is everything. Take the gun, any gun put it in the crook of your elbow see where your index finger first line lines up. Very hard to shoot a gun that is uncomfortable for the shooter. I too am left I dominate but shoot left or right hand. Both feel very natural to me. My Dad always said I was an odd duck...!   Lol. Oldtravler

Not odd at all. You're just ambidextrous. Some of us who are very dominant right-handed will have a harder time switching to left-handed. The brain finally accepts it and then it doesn't feel so bad.

[snapper]

I agree with Dave, kids will work hard to control the weight of the gun and they can have really bad form.

With our trap shooting team we see this all the time with new shooters that are young, small, not as strong.

Give her a .22 rifle that is made for a kid.  I like old Stevens single shots.  Great little rifles and not that expensive.  Easier to work on form and getting used to shooting a rifle when you are not fighting the weight.   I started both of my boys with Stevens Marksman and Favorite rifles.  They still love them today in their 20's.

Fleener

[RichG]

just spent the holidays with the inlaws and took the grandson shooting. he's 11 and has been shooting since he was 5. a 6lb modern bolt gun is still to heavy. and the weight is between the hands and not in the barrel.( haven't finished his 32 cap gun yet) even with his 22, offhand is difficult. let him try my shooting sticks to help support the gun and he can't miss. I've also shown a number of young ladies how to shoot and probably half are opposite eye dominate. the old time boys rifles are just the ticket or the modern cricket /chipmunk 22. my wifes grandson is at the stage where the boys rifles are short and the adults are long.