What do I need to buy to get started?

[C. Cash]

Note:  there are two TVM's.  One is Tennessee Valley Muzzleloaders which is Matt Advance???  Jack Garner split off and started his own and it is Tennessee Valley Manufacturing.  I went through Jack Garner for his Early Lancaster parts set and was well satisfied.  Both seem to be good outfits.  I had a local builder complete mine and the total cost for rifle and build was less than 800 bucks.

[projeeper]

prof, welcome to Pa. you,ll find many hunting hunting seasons here.min cal in pa is 45 for deer,but where you live theres quite a few bears so maybe opt for a larger cal 50,58 you also can take a bear during the first week of rifle season in your area + you have regular bear season prior to thanksgiving.the early muzzleloader season  in oct is doe only and you have to apply early this year starting july 3rd.
  happy hunting for your new rifle and all them critters.don,t forget to put in for an elk tag they,re limited in number but if you get lucky we got some monster bulls in your neck of the woods

[T*O*F]

Note:  there are two TVM's.  One is Tennessee Valley Muzzleloaders which is Matt Advance???  Jack Garner split off and started his own and it is Tennessee Valley Manufacturing.

That is incorrect information.   Jack is the original TVM.  Jack worked for Turner Kirkland at Dixie Gun Works for 15 years.  He also ran Jack's Gunstocks and made all the stocks for the kit guns that Dixie sold.  When he quit Dixie, he started building guns as TVM.  He had a number of builders working for him over the years including Jackie Brown, who started his own business.

Toni Avance was Jack's secretary and Matt was his current builder.  When he decided to retire, he sold the business to Matt and Toni, who continued as Tennessee Valley Muzzleloading.  Jack continued making stocks.  This was in the late 90's.  Jack remarried and his new wife had a son who was a tool and die maker.  He set up shop with the son and started TN Valley Manufacturing making gunbuilding hardware because many builders complained to him that there was only one commercial source for parts.  Recently, Jack has another young man building guns for him and also offers kits based on his parts.

[Jeff Peters]

Glad to have you aboard,
Best bet is to do your home work and buy the best you can afford.
For Pa. get a flint, and you'll be able to use it in all Pa. deer seasons. Get at least a 45, but I would sugest a 50 only because everyone carries 50 cal material in pa. Before you buy stop by Dixions and talk to Chuck Dixion but not during the gun fair he'll be to busy. If you get the chance stop by the gun fair in July. Lots of great gun makers, builders, suplliers of parts barrles, stocks, locks, new and used guns, powder, patches, balls, powder horns and accrutemennts etc..
Join a good locall gun club and attend thier muzzleloading shoots. Maybe a few of these fellows will be kind enouph to let you try a few different types and styles of guns. Thiis will help in your serarch for your first long gun. which one fits you better and is more comfotable for you to shoot. I say your first because this is a sickness, after the first your going to want another, and another each a bit different than the one before.
Most Pa black powder shooter are great people and will be a great help at getting started.
As you can see there are alot of different opinions, be sure you get the gun that fits you and serves the purposes you need it to.

Enjoy it here in Pa.
Jeff

[C. Cash]

Note:  there are two TVM's.  One is Tennessee Valley Muzzleloaders which is Matt Advance???  Jack Garner split off and started his own and it is Tennessee Valley Manufacturing.

That is incorrect information.   Jack is the original TVM.  Jack worked for Turner Kirkland at Dixie Gun Works for 15 years.  He also ran Jack's Gunstocks and made all the stocks for the kit guns that Dixie sold.  When he quit Dixie, he started building guns as TVM.  He had a number of builders working for him over the years including Jackie Brown, who started his own business.

Toni Avance was Jack's secretary and Matt was his current builder.  When he decided to retire, he sold the business to Matt and Toni, who continued as Tennessee Valley Muzzleloading.  Jack continued making stocks.  This was in the late 90's.  Jack remarried and his new wife had a son who was a tool and die maker.  He set up shop with the son and started TN Valley Manufacturing making gunbuilding hardware because many builders complained to him that there was only one commercial source for parts.  Recently, Jack has another young man building guns for him and also offers kits based on his parts.

Thanks for the clarification TOF.   Jack Garner was sure great to talk to and work with on my Early Lancaster.  


I am in Centre Co. PA and am just starting out as well.  I may not have all the answers, but would be glad to make some smoke with you and start asking the same questions.   I am at cashfam5@comcast.net if you are ever in the Centre Co. region or therabouts.  Good luck and have fun!

[JCKelly]

One book which you may find very helpful is Baker's remarks on the Rifle  by Ezekiel Baker, 1835. It bears reading, and re-reading again. All of us on this site, and all authors of the recommended contemporary books, shoot flintlock guns at targets & the occasional large wild animal strictly for sport. Mr. Baker was intimately familiar with serious use of these weapons in combat, at Waterloo for example, and of course had no, say, .30-'06 as a fall-back position. Just reading it again tonight, it means more to me after some recent shooting. I believe Google has it available on the internet, for myself I find it easier to read & leaf through a hard copy.
No writer now alive has the solid practical knowledge of Baker, with respect to flintlock rifles & fowling pieces. 

[Pennsylvania Professor]

Hi guys,

I've been busily following up on your suggestions over the past few days. I've been in touch with TVM and am strongly leaning toward ordering a longrifle from them or another US gunsmith. TVM informs me that they are currently delivering about 5-6 months after order which would give me enough time to make the late PA flintlock season in January with my new .54 cal; or perhaps another option will present itself. In the meantime, I spotted what seems to be a decent deal on a T/C Hawken to use as a learning gun. Even though I was originally opposed to a Hawken, I am a NH native after all and T/C does have a good rep.

In the meantime, I've begun to assemble my wish list.  I visited Track of the Wolf with SC Loyalist's list and the rest of your suggestions in hand and here is what I've come up with as a starter package.Sorry that it's in no particular order. I'd appreciate any comments or advice about what to drop/include on this list. Everything on here comes from that website. Altogether all this stuff came to a bit over $300; with my new rifle, it'll be about $650. This is not too bad considering what I'd thought the startup costs might be.

Thanks in advance for any advice,
PA Prof

Shooting patches, .010" cotton, .50 - .59 caliber, per 100, dry or wonder-lube
Short starter, 7/16" hickory rod, for .50 caliber
Primitive Rifleman's Powder Horn, carved neck, turned wooden butt plug, over 11" arc length, hand made
Flint priming flask, throws about 4 grains, brass
Forged steel vent pick, 2-1/2" long, for rifle
Knapping hammer, for flint lock shooters, brass hammerhead, overall length is 4-3/4"
English gun flint, 3/4 x 3/4" square, older large Siler, T/C, InvestArm, Lyman
Powder horn strap, adjustable jute 1-1/4" wide, 53" long
Leather Flint Wallet, 4 ounce leather, 5" by 2-3/4"
Powder measure, brass, adjustable 40 to 200 grains, with spout
Ball Bag, suede leather, flat bottom with draw string for lead balls
Small Patch Knife, 2-1/4" blade, with neck sheath
Primitive Rifleman's Turn Screw, hand forged tempered steel screwdriver, to fit in a longrifle patchbox
Track's best Black Powder BORE CLEAN Solvent, with flip-top spout
Cleaning Patches, 2-1/2" diameter, bag of 100, pure cotton flannel, for .45 to .58 caliber
Jag, jagged cleaning tip, brass, .50 caliber, 3/8 rod, 10-32 thread
Patch puller, corkscrew worm, steel, brass base, 10-32 thread
Fouling Scraper, flat face, brass, .50 caliber, 10-32 thread
Ball puller, steel screw, .50 caliber brass collar, 10-32 thread
Bore mop, 100% Cotton, for .48 to .50 caliber, 10-32 thread, washable
Bore brush, bronze, for .50 caliber, 10-32 thread
Trapper's MINK OIL TALLOW, patch grease, for match shooting & cold weather hunting
.490" round balls, pure lead, Hornady, per 100

[billd]

Another option you can explore if your at all handy.....Come down to Dixon's Fair and buy a gun assembled in the white.  That is a gun that is ready to shoot but not final sanded or browned. Several vendors are there with them so you can try which ones fit you best.  You'll see several styles, grades of wood and swamped and straight barrels.  Nothing is worse than having a gun that doesn't fit you right. TVM may even be there. Tip Curtis and Stonewall Creek always have a good selection.

As far as your list, it looks more complete than my hunting supplies. I but my patch material from Walmart, use a paper clip for a vent pick, a plastic squeeze bottle for a pan charger. I use a fixed home made powder measure for hunting rather than an adjustable.

Many of us here on the board will be at Dixon's and would by more than happy to walk around with you and help you spend your money.

Dixon's is in Allentown, PA if you don't know. Last weekend in July. Friday, Saturday and Sunday. It can get crowded so come early.

Bill

[Dale Halterman]

If you are buying pre-cut patches, you won't need a patch knife. And I don't use a knapping hammer. I use  the flat bottom of my pan charger.

The man thing about your list that bothers me is that it looks way too complete. My suggestion would be to buy the absolute minimum and then add items as you feel you need them. That approach will help you avoid buying things that end up in the closet not being used.

For example, I bought a suede ball bag that may be similar to the one you are considering. Once filled with balls, it was too big and heavy to carry in a shoulder bag and I ended up buying a much smaller one from Poor Bull on this site.

Since the items on your list are not long lead like a rifle, I would suggest you hold off buying them until after you have been to Dixon's. I know I told you earlier not to go for the gunmaker's fair in July because it would be too busy, but if you want to see some fantastic horns and other accoutrements, it would also be worthwhile.

Oh, yeah, I don't use a bore brush or swab, either. Don't know if anyone else here does. And I do have a nice little forged vent pick now, but for many years I used a paper clip like Bill.

I would recommend an adjustable measure when getting started because you will likely need to try different loads for best accuracy. I have one with an integral funnel that I use at the range. I think it was made by TC.

One thing I would add that you don't have is a stainless steel range rod with muzzle guide if you plan on doing much shooting at paper.

Dale H

[hanshi]

Well, Pennsylvania Prof, I see some others have already said what I intended to suggest.  They are right on target so I'll just say that you can cut half that list out with no problem and eliminate much of what you'll have left.  One thing you do want to do is get that ss range rod with muzzle protector!  You'll also find it's more fun to make some of these things yourself rather than buy them.

[SCLoyalist]

Yep, ditto needing a range rod and protector - for cleaning back at the house if not in the field (and think about getting one long enough not only for a 28" barreled  T/C but also whatever you might get later (e.g. a 44" barrel Lancaster)).

One link you might find interesting to peruse in your spare time is :  http://www.coon-n-crockett.org/linklist.htm   ,  aka "The Almost Complete List of Muzzleloading and Buckskinning Links".  Lots of info on clubs, gunmakers, vendors, etc.    If you've never worked up a load for a muzzleloader before, I'd recommend going to Dutch Schoulz's link on this list.  He sells a packet of pamphlets on a systematic approach to working up an accurate load.   The content is mainly just common sense, once you read it, but it does put method into the madness. 

Again, Good Luck.   SCL

[Roger Fisher]

Hi guys,

I've been busily following up on your suggestions over the past few days. I've been in touch with TVM and am strongly leaning toward ordering a longrifle from them or another US gunsmith. TVM informs me that they are currently delivering about 5-6 months after order which would give me enough time to make the late PA flintlock season in January with my new .54 cal; or perhaps another option will present itself. In the meantime, I spotted what seems to be a decent deal on a T/C Hawken to use as a learning gun. Even though I was originally opposed to a Hawken, I am a NH native after all and T/C does have a good rep.

In the meantime, I've begun to assemble my wish list.  I visited Track of the Wolf with SC Loyalist's list and the rest of your suggestions in hand and here is what I've come up with as a starter package.Sorry that it's in no particular order. I'd appreciate any comments or advice about what to drop/include on this list. Everything on here comes from that website. Altogether all this stuff came to a bit over $300; with my new rifle, it'll be about $650. This is not too bad considering what I'd thought the startup costs might be.

Thanks in advance for any advice,
PA Prof

Shooting patches, .010" cotton, .50 - .59 caliber, per 100, dry or wonder-lube
Short starter, 7/16" hickory rod, for .50 caliber
Primitive Rifleman's Powder Horn, carved neck, turned wooden butt plug, over 11" arc length, hand made
Flint priming flask, throws about 4 grains, brass
Forged steel vent pick, 2-1/2" long, for rifle
Knapping hammer, for flint lock shooters, brass hammerhead, overall length is 4-3/4"
English gun flint, 3/4 x 3/4" square, older large Siler, T/C, InvestArm, Lyman
Powder horn strap, adjustable jute 1-1/4" wide, 53" long
Leather Flint Wallet, 4 ounce leather, 5" by 2-3/4"
Powder measure, brass, adjustable 40 to 200 grains, with spout
Ball Bag, suede leather, flat bottom with draw string for lead balls
Small Patch Knife, 2-1/4" blade, with neck sheath
Primitive Rifleman's Turn Screw, hand forged tempered steel screwdriver, to fit in a longrifle patchbox
Track's best Black Powder BORE CLEAN Solvent, with flip-top spout
Cleaning Patches, 2-1/2" diameter, bag of 100, pure cotton flannel, for .45 to .58 caliber
Jag, jagged cleaning tip, brass, .50 caliber, 3/8 rod, 10-32 thread
Patch puller, corkscrew worm, steel, brass base, 10-32 thread
Fouling Scraper, flat face, brass, .50 caliber, 10-32 thread
Ball puller, steel screw, .50 caliber brass collar, 10-32 thread
Bore mop, 100% Cotton, for .48 to .50 caliber, 10-32 thread, washable
Bore brush, bronze, for .50 caliber, 10-32 thread
Trapper's MINK OIL TALLOW, patch grease, for match shooting & cold weather hunting
.490" round balls, pure lead, Hornady, per 100

Find the tightest woven cotton patching you can at least .015 explain later by the yard cut in strips load and cut at muzzle.  Don't pay those high prices for precut!!

Sure, if you like nice horns spring for it; but to go cheap you can pick up a plain horn and it holds the black stuff just fine....

I use such a brass primer and find it does plug up at times maybe I should go to a horn but that takes more nutzing around with the plug...

Go easy with that steel vent pick you can quickly open that vent more than you want....
I seldom use one (been there) course I'm not the brightest bulb on the tree seems like.

I'd forget the fancy bore clean solvent......Cold water works just fine and maybe better.

100 cleaning patches????That's only a start.... Have your wifey hit Wally World or whatever and buy the baby flannel and cut your own.  Easy, cheap and gives you and your young lady something to do evenings.....(and afternoons)  Have you noticed the cost of a lousy 100 such rags in the gun shop?? Really want to go cheap?? Have her hit the yard sales and pick up the used baby flannel blankets then wash-wash-wash

I think the bore mop is a waste.  (how many U want?? )  Be certain the studs are steel not brass - reason is obvious....

Ball puller is ok but use it only as a last resort.  Spring for the CO2 cartridge item or push enough 4 f in to the vent and shoot that dry ball out...  Keep your ol bod away from the muzzle at all times...That suggestion for the stainless steel rod w guide is a must...

Your mink idea is ok but good ol crisco works just fine for hunting........

I would suggest tighter ball patch combo try .495 and at least .015 patches.... for match shooting..Check the shot patches for rips etc.

Too bad I didn't have much help when I started playing at this in 76 I could have saved plenty of $ and false starts.....Come to think about it - I still need help (a lot)

[Dale Halterman]

Roger just reminded me - I wouldn't buy those cleaning patches, either. I picked up an absurd amount of surplus army cleaning patches for peanuts a few years ago and I am about half way through them. Of course, I don't shoot as much as Roger.

Dale H

[Nate McKenzie]

Pa Prof. Before buying a rifle with a straight sided barrel, please handle one with a swamped (tapered and flared) barrel. It makes all the difference in the world for style and balance.

[Pennsylvania Professor]

Hi Nate,

Thanks for the advice. The importance of a swamped barrel has also been driven home to me by other members as well, so I will certainly keep this advice in mind when I order my custom rifle.

Also, thanks Roger for the detailed list of things that I can safely discard. I'm beginning to understand that this hobby--or lifestyle--is less about our consumer oriented life and more about "making do" and doing the best with the materials available. Pioneerlike to me, and a mindset I can relate to. During the last few years of my decade long slog through grad school, I supported myself by working as a flight instructor. Many of my students were quite well-off, and wanted to go the full-glass cockpit full panel GPS route. On the other hand, I tried to show them the potential of the supposedly archaic "steam gauges" that many general aviation aircraft still have. A lot of them were amazed at what the old tech stuff could do. I guess that's why I'm interested in flintlocks & the pioneer lifestyle now...this "old tech" was successful for hundreds of years...they say that Winchester 30-30 has harvested the most deer of any cartridge, but I'm betting the round ball has harvested even more.

That in mind, I'll look into cutting my own patches.  

[Leatherbelly]

 PA Prof,
  BTW, Nate has a Reading style rifle for sale that's real nice. Make him a decent offer,it's in the For Sale section. Garry Elsenbeck has a sweet bag and horn.125 bucks,cheap for nice. It'd be neat if someone could come down and walk you through.Save ya a bit of coin.

[billd]

Prof,   
I will be at Dixon's on Friday, July 24th and would be glad to walk around with you.  Bring cash....lots!! Just kidding.

Bill

[Jerry V Lape]

Two things:

The purchase of a CO2 ball discharger is not optional.  I know I know!  - The pioneers didn't have them, but this is a safety measure which transcends period correctness.  Get a box of C02 cartridges to go with it. 

The plan to have the TVM arrive just in time for the late season is not workable.  These rifles aren't like your modern rifles.  Despite all the advice, if you are like most of us it is going to take you at least from now until the season starts to get anywhere near proficient in flintlock shooting skills and  in the learning curve on managing a flintlock.     

[Jerry V Lape]

I looked over your list of things again.  Have some additions and deletions for you. 

You can post pone the powder horn and substitute a half dozen plastic containers for premeasured charges.  This is flintlock hunting, you aren't going to get but one or two shots!  I carry three with the 1st already loaded before leaving camp. 

You need to add a powder can spout (self closing).  It is a safety item and it makes your powder can into a good range accessory. 

I go back to the advice that getting hooked up with a good local club for some tutoring will be the best thing you can do.  Your planning on buying way too much.   And most things hanging on a sporting goods dealers wall in a blister pack just isn't what you are going to wind up using. 

Unspoken  Muzzleloading creed is THRIFT - unless you can go cheaper!     

[Dale Halterman]

I am with Jerry on the powder horn. I have two or three, but have never actually used one.

I use the spout on a can at the range, and pre-measured charges when hunting, just like Jerry said.

Dale H

[Don Getz]

I agree with Jerry and Dale on that powder horn bit, all they do is flop around, and you don't need it for hunting.   I have
been shooting for a long time, and still don't own a CO 2 discharger....Jerry...yes, they are nice to have, but, are they really a necessity?   Professor....what you have to do is go to a shoot and talk to the serious shooters, get more of an idea of what you really need.  I'm sure you will find that you can eliminate at least half of that stuff you have listed as things to buy.   Half the fun of shooting these things is looking for unique little things that you will like.   When at Dixon's,
you will find a guy by the name of "Sparks" Mumma, he makes the neatest little powder measure, priming horns, etc.
If you buy something of his, the first time you use it among friends, someone is going to say, "where did you get that?"
This is part of the fun of shooting a nice longrifle.  Look us up at Dixon's, maybe you need a nice "barn gun"?   Don

[Dan]

Professor,

Knowing this is getting long, perhaps you'll see this or maybe not.  Mr. Getz gives good advice, take heed.  In this world I would think him the professor and many of the rest of us the student.

Spent most of my life shooting smokeless in all the varieties of arms, chamberings and so forth.  Still cherish the tool that lets me dot the "i" at fair distance or drop the hog with alacrity at short range.  That said, I've found renewal in the world of front end loaders and Lord Black. A common affliction from what I can determine.

To me, the idea is simplicity.  One can ignore 90% of the minutiae and still put the buck down in the fall leaves with a flinter.  A great war was once won with such simplicity.  You will find in time that "making do" in context of the old days did not mean "not do", rather a mindset that found alternative solutions. It was so because it was necessary.  For you, there is a need to step from the world of study and research into that of hands on OJT.  To that end.........

The first and most important step is the purchase of a rifle or musket. Do not scrimp on this. Quality pays handsome dividends, unlike most banks these days.  With a rifle or smoothbore in hand you need very few additional supplies. Patches, balls, powder and a bag to carry them in.  I'm not suggesting you need to approach this solely in primitive fashion for there are a few items that will make things easier, even if they are not wholly required.   You'll figure them out in time with experience.  You'll look back in a few years too and see things squirreled away you used once.  They serve as a reminder....... 

As example of quality follows.  My first day with a flinter at 50 yards, offhand. NOT my first target.  The prolonged (relative) lock time of a flinter requires the acquisition of discipline to a level unknown to most white powder shooters.   Evidence of that below:





With a little practice it got a lot better.



Not competitive on the range probably but it'll do for deer.  In the world of flintlocks it is not the accessories that make the hunter.  You only need a good rifle to start with.

[hanshi]

Zactly!  Everything you need to hunt with can be easily carried in the pocket of your hunting jacket.  Been there; done that!

[Jerry V Lape]

Don, of course I am not going to tell someone with your extensive experience you absolutely need a C02 discharger.  However, our friend who asked the original question is a novice and the device will see him safely through his first few dry ball experiments.  It will also allow him to unload his flintlock after a day's hunt without having to fire it, before transporting it home - reduces the possiblities he might get a little lazy at the end of the day and decide to transport a loaded gun in his car.   And most importantly, in the event of a misfire/hangfire, avoid the need to put himself near the muzzle to get the ball puller screwed into the ball.    I bet you know some shooters who have had a bad experience with the ball puller, and if you don't I can introduce you to some. 

[George F.]

IT HAS BEEN SAID...   GO TO DIXON'S!!!  see post "Big Event" you won't be sorry, it's only 5 weeks away!  ...Geo.