TVM: Subpar?

[Mike payne]

I have a 20g American fowler from Matt at TVM for the last 15 or 16 years. I have been very happy with it. Spent a lot of time in woods it has put meat on the table. And for quite a few years I shot it in rifle matches with patched round ball and did well.

Mike

[Kopfjaeger]

TVM makes a very nice flintlock. I have eight flintlocks three of which are TVMs.  A 50. caliber Lancaster, a 50. caliber early Virginia, and a 32. caliber Southern ( pictured ). Are they 100% historically correct ? No. But they are good looking, reliable, and shoot great. And sold at a affordable price. I have no doubt you will love your TVM poor boy flintlock.

[wattlebuster]

Guys thanks to some words of encouragementarion, I think I’m going to keep the TVM order going.

Might not be what some people want but for my needs, the shoe fits.

Were I you id go with what pleased me an not give a good rip what pleases anyone else. Your the one paying for it an you have already said you didnt care for the HC aspects of the gun. TVM builds a good solid hunting/shooting gun that odds are will shoot very well.  You did good choosing some quality components that it will be built with so relax an learn to shoot a flintlock well with it.  Later on if you decide you want a more HC gun you can then go that route

[Bob Roller]

What do they charge for a plain as a fence post rifle? No butt plate,no entry thimble.
probably Green Mountain barrel 13/16 45 caliber,my lock and triggers and plain walnut.
Trigger guard can be a screen door pull like one I saw 60 years ago in Farris's gun shop
Bob Roller

[James Rogers]

The style of rifle you have ordered will lend itself to the particular building characteristics of  Corinth school build than other styles.  Hope you enjoy shooting and continue in the hobby indefinitely.

[Smokey Plainsman]

The style of rifle you have ordered will lend itself to the particular building characteristics of  Corinth school build than other styles.  Hope you enjoy shooting and continue in the hobby indefinitely.

Ha!! Had to google that one. Heck that is a valid point, though. While not set in the past times, Matt and his team are really making rifles in a different form just as all the other schools of the old times did to one another. Maybe in another century or better they really will call them Corinth school guns?   

[Mike Brooks]

Maybe in another century or better they really will call them Corinth school guns?

They already REALLY do! There are a good handful of builders you can include in that school.

[galudwig]

Smokey,
If I were you I would not think of canceling the order. I suspect once you shoot a flint rifle a few times you will either be hooked and looking forward to your next rifle or you will lose interest and not use it a lot going forward (probably the former). So for now just wait for your rifle to be completed. You can't get a better barrel or lock and they are the two most important parts of a flint rifle, shoot it then decide whether you want to invest a lot more money for a sleeker/sexier looking rifle.
Dennis

What Dennis said! We are really in a good place right now. There are so many options for those newer to the sport to choose from these days.  Many of us "Old Duffers" started out with T/C Hawkens and Renegades because that was all the was available. Finding an affordable, quality made flintlock rifle was near impossible. As we got more into the sport, we all went on to buy/build many other rifles to satisfy our desires/needs for something above average. Even then, many of us still have those T/C's stuffed in the safe because there are so many memories associated with them.  Chances are you'll end up feeling the same way about your TVM as some of us do about our old T/C's. All the components you ordered are the same components that the "better" gun builders are using in their guns.  The only thing you won't be getting are the embellishments that make their firearms better than average.  About the only thing I would have them add is a Chambers White Lightning vent liner (if you haven't already asked them to install one).

[Kopfjaeger]

Another of my TVM flintlocks.

[Bob Roller]

The concept of the plainer that a stick SMR could be,could be considered sub par by
a number of top of the line makers.Using an automobile analogy,Jim and Katherine Kibler
have used brains and bucks to raise it from the status of a Model "T" Ford to that of a Packard.
The next step is a Duesenberg which really moves it out of sub par to a borderline scandal and
possibly unaffordable.

Bob Roller

[bama]

Mat is Tennessee Valley Muzzleloading, Jack is Tennessee Valley Manufacturing. Both build good quality guns that shoot well. I think Mat worked or trained under Jack and that’s why Mat’s rifles look very similar to Jack’s. If you have a limited budget either can build you a good shooting rifle. One thing you need to understand is they both have builders who help build their rifles for them so the quality will be a little varied from rifle to rifle but you will get a good shooting rifle.

[bama]

One more thing I think Jack has probably built more Muzzleloading rifles than all the builders on this forum have built combined. We are talking thousands of rifles. There are but a few others that have spent as much time building and promoting gun building than Jack Garner. Mat learned from Jack, so you will get a good rifle.

[axelp]

Many of the 18th gun builders used apprentices and whatnot too.

[Mike Brooks]

I've been trying to hire a good whatnot for years.

[Jim Kibler]

The perception of quality is certainly a subjective thing.  We all have different backgrounds and expectations.  When it comes to longrifles, I come from the background of making high quality, one-off custom rifles.  With this the case, I wouln't be too happy with a lesser product.

As to our kits, we try to put all the quality in them that a high end fully custom rifle would have.  I can turn one of our kits into a finely finished piece as nice as any "scratch built" longrifle I can build.  With a heck of a lot less work...

I recall seeing an add from another supplier a while back that promoted how they made stocks one at a time and didn't use any modern, top secret, voodoo cnc machines.  Wonder who this was directed towards?   They made mention how they did things sort of like JP Beck if I recall.  Couldn't help to wonder how they rationalized angle grinders and JP Beck....  Guess everyone is trying to make a living and they have to do what they think is best to sell their product.

Jim

[axelp]

LOL Mr. Kibler, I think the ad in question has been running for many, many years longer than you have been in business with your very, VERY nice cnc'd kits. In no way could it have possibly been directed at you, unless you also own a time machine.

I don't think TVM (either one) believes they are in direct competition with the high end "one of" custom builders. They fill a niche in the market that custom builders simply cannot fill (and I doubt they want to fill anyway). Honestly, I would love to own a high-end custom flintlock. But I'd have second, third and fourth thoughts running the woods like I do with a high end gun (historic or modern). Same as I have no problem driving my old  well loved truck thru the brush, but avoid that with the nice family car. Both get me from A to B. Both have their place in the world. I love em both.

Mr Kibler, I am very impressed with your kits and think they too fill a niche in the market that the "one of" custom builder cannot fill (or the TVMs of the hobby for that matter)

respectfully,

Ken Prather
advertising professional who likes to barter for his hobby needs.

 

[Jim Kibler]

LOL Mr. Kibler, I think the ad in question has been running for many, many years longer than you have been in business with your very, VERY nice cnc'd kits. In no way could it have possibly been directed at you, unless you also own a time machine.

I don't think TVM (either one) believes they are in direct competition with the high end "one of" custom builders. They fill a niche in the market that custom builders simply cannot fill (and I doubt they want to fill anyway). Honestly, I would love to own a high-end custom flintlock. But I'd have second, third and fourth thoughts running the woods like I do with a high end gun (historic or modern). Same as I have no problem driving my old  well loved truck thru the brush, but avoid that with the nice family car. Both get me from A to B. Both have their place in the world. I love em both.

Mr Kibler, I am very impressed with your kits and think they too fill a niche in the market that the "one of" custom builder cannot fill (or the TVMs of the hobby for that matter)



respectfully,

Ken Prather
advertising professional who likes to barter for his hobby needs.

 

Well that's good to know.  I feel much better knowing that the insult was intended in a general sort of way.

[axelp]

Not at all. Let me enlighten you... Back when the ad was made, there was a lot of mistaken assumptions going around about TVM. Folks assumed that they must be using a duplicator to do their stocks because of the large number of guns produced each year. (like somehow that was a bad thing) This ad was in response to that and only that. They do not use a duplicator for their stocks. It had nothing to do with insulting anyone. If you have any question of that, I would suggest you take some time to get to know Matt and Toni Avance. 

As far as the JP Beck ad, this was (again) in response to a mistaken assumption going around that somehow TVM using a team approach to building was somehow contrary to historical gunmaking processes. It (again) was not an attack on anyone, it was in response to unwarranted criticism directed towards them from others.

They have been successful in the business of making historical traditional muzzleloaders for many years. They fill a niche that the high-end custom builders cannot fill. And they do it (not perfectly, but) pretty well.

Jim, your wonderfully fine products will never be confused for theirs. You are doing great and I predict you will do well for as long as you want to do so (regardless of how TVM makes their guns). I really think there is plenty of room in the hobby for everyone.

respectfully,  Ken Prather

[Jim Kibler]

Well that's good to know.  Guess the old addage about assumptions applies here with me! 

[Smokey Plainsman]

The perception of quality is certainly a subjective thing.  We all have different backgrounds and expectations.  When it comes to longrifles, I come from the background of making high quality, one-off custom rifles.  With this the case, I wouln't be too happy with a lesser product.

As to our kits, we try to put all the quality in them that a high end fully custom rifle would have.  I can turn one of our kits into a finely finished piece as nice as any "scratch built" longrifle I can build.  With a heck of a lot less work...

I recall seeing an add from another supplier a while back that promoted how they made stocks one at a time and didn't use any modern, top secret, voodoo cnc machines.  Wonder who this was directed towards?   They made mention how they did things sort of like JP Beck if I recall.  Couldn't help to wonder how they rationalized angle grinders and JP Beck....  Guess everyone is trying to make a living and they have to do what they think is best to sell their product.

Jim

Mr. Kibler,

Clearly, and I doubt anyone would challenge my opinion, your rifles are superior to nearly all others available to us today. I cannot think of a maker more worthy of praise than yourself, and it must be a source of immense pride to have, along with your spouse, revolutionized what a “kit gun” can be. A while ago we conversed on your future plans of possibly offering classic caplock rifles. You are a gentleman held in the highest esteem by all here and I am very thankful you have taken the time to converse with us on this board, as I know your efforts are in exceptional demand.

At present, various members here have spoken with me in private on the matter of Matt Avance’s TVM rifles, and I am now encouraged that those too, while in no way on the same “plane” as your impeccable rifles, are in general considered to be good functional shooters. Their styling and “correctness” may not be ideal, but I believe for my own purposes that it will have not been a bad choice. I agree with you that such matters are certainly subjective and all aspects on the subject can be endlessly debated. From my limited experience, I think we as a community can agree on perhaps one, and only one, thing about our sport. That is that we are fascinated with and love shooting the treasure that is the American Long Rifle. Our different mindsets, experiences, outlooks and goals only serve to diversify and enrich our great hobby and we can learn so much from one another because of that.

On this Christmas Day I give thanks to all my muzzleloading brethren near and far, and wish each and every one of you a prosperous and safe New Year!

V/r

-Smokey

[axelp]

I agree 100%. Jim Kibler is not only an exemplary custom builder and master artisan, He also offers an exemplary, even revolutionary kit. Someday, I hope to be a proud owner of a Kibler rifle.
Ken Prather

[RockLock92]

Guys I recently submitted an order to TVM for one of their Tennessee style flintlock rifles. Well some of the guys on another forum are pretty much saying TVMs aren’t very good and that I should have gotten a Tip Curtis gun or something else.

Guys is this so? I don’t need a rifle 100% historically correct, I do not reenact, just shoot and hunt. I ordered a plain poor boy iron mounted gun with fancy maple, .40 caliber A frame swamped 42” Rice round bottom bbl, and Chamber’s Late Ketland lock. Also will have a grease hole in the stock, devoid of side plate, entry thimble, nose cap, just a really plain gun but with (hopefully) pretty wood, a good bbl, and a good lock.

But those guys have me worried I should have made a different choice. 

Guys please let me know either way... I’m just worried!!

-Smokey

If I am not mistaken at one point they offered all of their kits with only Siler locks... a Siler is a fine lock, but definitely not an appropriate choice for a SMR... I  think that is what most people are referring to.

[Smokey Plainsman]

TVM makes a very nice flintlock. I have eight flintlocks three of which are TVMs.  A 50. caliber Lancaster, a 50. caliber early Virginia, and a 32. caliber Southern ( pictured ). Are they 100% historically correct ? No. But they are good looking, reliable, and shoot great. And sold at a affordable price. I have no doubt you will love your TVM poor boy flintlock.

That is a GORGEOUS rifle and I deeply love it!!

If mine even looks half as good, brother I’ll be as happy as a clam that just won the lottery!!

[Mike Brooks]

Then you're going to be really happy. I could point out architectural and styling flaws on all the above pictured guns but there is no reason to and they make no difference to happy customers anyway. I spend WAY too much time focusing on  minutia anyway.

[Smokey Plainsman]

Then you're going to be really happy. I could point out architectural and styling flaws on all the above pictured guns but there is no reason to and they make no difference to happy customers anyway. I spend WAY too much time focusing on  minutia anyway.

Thanks Mike.