Author Topic: Season the bore???  (Read 9703 times)

Offline JCKelly

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Season the bore???
« on: June 13, 2009, 04:49:59 PM »
At least two gunmakers, Thompson Center and Caywood, go out of their way to discuss removing all petroleum base products from the barrels, and "seasoning" them with one or the other supposedly organic lube/bore cleaner. They describe the process as "lube soaking into the pores of the metal. . . like seasoning cast iron"
I would more tend to believe this if they avoided the pure B-- S--- term "pores of the metal" Steel does not have "pores"  Grey Cast Iron does have thousands of little slits, so to speak, on the surface where graphite flakes were, and these areas do indeed hold oil. One reason grey iron made good cylinder bores for internal combustion machines.

But steel is solid, without a @!*% pore in it, or on the surface.

I am aware that various chemicals do bond to the metal surface, machining oils being one example. Good sulphurized, chlorine bearing machine oil can lower the shear stress required to cut, just as it touches a freshly cut surface.  I use this just as one example of oils interacting with steel.

So, does anyone have believeable experience with the use of inorganic, e.g. T/C bore butter or Old Swamp Hunter Lube, lubes & cleaners versus "petroleum base" products?
This being with respect to accumulation of fouling in the bore.

Or, are any of you guys chemists enough to discuss the matter in technical terms? Me, I am a mere metallurgist.

Leatherbelly

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Re: Season the bore???
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2009, 05:33:17 PM »
  LOL, seasoning the bore in MHO is Bovine Scatology!

Offline LynnC

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Re: Season the bore???
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2009, 06:08:17 PM »
JC, I share your skepticism.

I'm with LB on this - Pure unadulterated BS. ;D

I think the seasoning thing got started when the various grease lubes came on the market.

I'd worry about anything ie. "seasoning" left in the bore as a potential corrosion problem.  In fact, About 20 years ago I tried the seasoning thing with bore butter.
Shot with the BB, flushed the barrel out clean, lubed/preserved with the BB.
and when I wiped it out before shooting, the BB came out kinda brown. :o  Made me think RUST.  I Quit the seasoning thing if it meant rust!
 
I just clean the bore up bright and shiney - use your favorite bore preservative - and wipe out with an alky patch before shooting.   ;)
« Last Edit: June 13, 2009, 06:20:07 PM by Lynn Cook »
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northmn

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Re: Season the bore???
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2009, 07:14:38 PM »
There were other folks on another thread I think that insisted you season the bore when you shoot as they have found when welding things like hydraulic cylinders that oil does seem to permeate the metal.  My experience tends to support Leatherbelly's comment about bovine scat.

DP

BrownBear

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Re: Season the bore???
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2009, 07:17:53 PM »
I have nothing to sell and nothing to gain or lose, no matter who wins the debate this time.  Let's see, isn't this inning # 182157 in the old seasoning ball game?

I know two things:  Point One is that over time the bores do darken using organic lubes and basic water cleaning.  It looks like a mild version of the "seasoning" I worked hard to develop and deeply cherish on all my cast iron cookware.

But here's Point Two:

Use a little brake cleaner fluid and the bore can be swabbed back to shiny bright steel.  And it shoots just as well and hits the same POI as it did before you got rid of the messy kid stuff darkening your bore.

When I add that all up, I come back to the fact that I like the looks of a "seasoned" bore, and it doesn't seem to hurt a thing.  But when a real thorough cleaning before storing a gun takes the bore back to white bright, I don't sweat it.

erdillonjr

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Re: Season the bore???
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2009, 07:35:56 PM »
I agree with Lynn. Pure BS. Ed

roundball

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Re: Season the bore???
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2009, 09:01:25 PM »
In my opinion, its pure marketing hype.
I've used Natural Lube 1000 for about 18 years now...it’s served me well at the range and for all my hunting.  However, I do not believe in intentionally doing anything to 'season' my bores...in fact, I think my cleaning regimen prevents that.

My first year experience was that in spite of a white patch coming out white, leading me to believe my bores were spotless, NL1000 residue was apparently building up in the bores after repeated trips to the range.  Eventually, accuracy began to suffer a little and long story short, a bottle of Shooter's Choice black powder cleaning gel got everything dissolved out and accuracy returned perfectly.

I've still stayed with NL1000 all these years but ever since then, to prevent any future build-up, I've used steaming hot water with a squirt of dishwashing detergent and keep the bores at a factory raw bare metal state as much as possible after every time I shoot them.
The explanation for the benefit of steaming hot water when using bore butter can be compared to egg residue on a breakfast plate...hold a breakfast plate under a cold water faucet and the egg residue sits right there stuck to the plate...but hold it under a steaming hot water faucet and in a few seconds the egg residue melts and slides right off the plate.  I'm convinced that same thing occurs with bore butter residue and keeps it from building up...just need to dry the bore right after cleaning to prevent flash rust but that’s a no brainer.

I've also bought used barrels for a song over the years who's owners used bore butter and thought their barrels were 'shot out'...Shooter's Choice BP gel and they were like new again.  So for me personally, I work hard to "prevent" any seasoning from taking place...I don't want anything of any kind building up in my bores...it may still be taking place and I'm not aware of it, but I don't think so.  At any rate, whatever I've been doing for all these years works fine and my approach is "if it ain't broke I ain't gonna fix it".
« Last Edit: June 13, 2009, 09:16:19 PM by roundball »

Offline Frank

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Re: Season the bore???
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2009, 11:16:11 PM »
Seasoning the bore on a modern rifle barrel is pure Bravo Sierra!

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: Season the bore???
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2009, 11:39:33 PM »
If you use oilve oil as a patch lube you can add a little garlic and oregano to season a bore.

E. Ogre

Offline Roger Fisher

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Re: Season the bore???
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2009, 01:20:21 AM »
If you use oilve oil as a patch lube you can add a little garlic and oregano to season a bore.

E. Ogre
Wot??? ;D

Offline Z. Buck

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Re: Season the bore???
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2009, 06:34:48 AM »
haha Monk that is great, i use "sweet oil" relatively often in my firearms, i never thought about grabbing my aromatic olive oils for an adventure of olfactory delight...i wonder what garlic and sulfur smell like together, would it make your mouth water, or your eyes?
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Offline hanshi

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Re: Season the bore???
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2009, 07:15:54 AM »
  LOL, seasoning the bore in MHO is Bovine Scatology!

It shore do be that!  Plus I wouldn't want that scat crusting up my bore!
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
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Leatherbelly

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Re: Season the bore???
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2009, 05:03:14 PM »
Zee Bee, Now that is funny! Made my eyes water!  no onions... please!

Offline LynnC

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Re: Season the bore???
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2009, 05:37:49 PM »
Hey Mad Monk - How do them well seasoned bores taste? ;D
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Offline T*O*F

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Re: Season the bore???
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2009, 02:05:43 AM »
Quote
If you use oilve oil as a patch lube you can add a little garlic and oregano to season a bore.
That only works on imported Italian guns.
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Offline Mad Monk

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Re: Season the bore???
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2009, 04:34:10 AM »
Hey Mad Monk - How do them well seasoned bores taste? ;D

Don't know.  Not supposed to blow down the bore so I can't taste the muzzle.

E. Ogre

mike e

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Re: Season the bore???
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2009, 07:11:58 PM »
With respect to accumulation of fouling in the bore: I have used T/C Bore Butter and used the reccommended cleaning method's to "season" the bore. I still could not load without cleaning after 5-6 shots. This was with several different rifles. If it actually seasons a bore it still does not allow repeated shot without cleaning which is what is claimed by T/C. Accuracy falls off as the barrel fouls also. Spit works better for repeated shots and I'm experimenting with beef tallow for hunting with next year.

J.D.

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Re: Season the bore???
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2009, 07:52:42 PM »
I kinda like mutton tallow for a grease type lube. Nice and slick. Stinks though.

Offline Long John

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Re: Season the bore???
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2009, 12:08:09 AM »
JC,

I have has occassion to look at hundres of photomicrographs of steel compinents that have failed under stress conditions as well as newly manufactured steel components.  The steel looks like a hodge-podge of crystals all quashed together.  There are definitely spaces between the crystals forming "pores" in the surface.  The same is true of brass.  With scanning electron microscope images you can see the zinc crystals versus the copper crystals.

That having been said I believe the notion that a barrel needs "seasoning" is baloney.  The temperature inside a barrel during the burn of black powder is on the order of 1800 degrees F - much hotter than the fry pan when you are cooking your eggs!  That kind of temperature will vaporized most organic compounds, including any "seasoning" that might have been left behind.  Petroleum based greases and lubricants are usually dominated with aromatic ring compounds while the "natural" lubricants are typically alliphatic.  The aromatic ring will decopose to carbon soot much more readily than aliphatic componds will.  That might have an impact on the performance of the lube.

I use bear grease and bees wax as a lube.

Best Regards,

JMC

roundball

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Re: Season the bore???
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2009, 05:03:02 AM »
With respect to accumulation of fouling in the bore: I have used T/C Bore Butter and used the reccommended cleaning method's to "season" the bore. I still could not load without cleaning after 5-6 shots. This was with several different rifles. If it actually seasons a bore it still does not allow repeated shot without cleaning which is what is claimed by T/C. Accuracy falls off as the barrel fouls also. Spit works better for repeated shots and I'm experimenting with beef tallow for hunting with next year.

In order to be able to shoot repeatedly without wiping between shots, moisture has to be introduced into the bore to keep the fouling so soft that each successive patched ball wipes it off the walls as it’s being seated.

What T/C’s advertising about Natural Lube 1000 does not point out is the requirement for adequate moisture to be present for such tests to be successful…ie: keep that bore moist and you can shoot all day using NL1000…and to get that amount of needed moisture into the bore one of two things has to happen:
1) Shooting conditions have to include high humidity so as soon as a shot is finished, the moisture is immediately sucked into the bore to keep the fouling soft;
2) Or, use a liquid type lube in the first place so the bore always has moisture in it.

I know from enough years of my own experience that I can shoot my full range sessions using NL1000 patches without wiping between shots during late spring and summer months because the humidity here is so high during those months the bore gets all the moisture it needs to keep the fouling 100% soft.

But during the fall and winter months’ low humidity, dry air I can't shoot more than 8-10 shots without needing to wipe the bore because the fouling stays dry & hard.  The simplest solution for me is to squeeze a few squirts of Hoppes No9 PLUS BP Solvent & Patch Lube into a bag of NL1000 patches to get them wet…then I can shoot my dry air range sessions without wiping between them just like I do with NL1000 patches in the high humidity months of summer...the key is moisture.

William Worth

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Re: Season the bore???
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2009, 05:53:23 PM »
But there is a good use for "Bore Butter".  I keep going back to it as a resizing lube for cartridges.  It beats other waxes and what not.  I've never stuck a case with it.  I would also recommend it as a hunting patch lube.

beleg2

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Re: Season the bore???
« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2009, 02:00:37 PM »
In far from an expret.
IMHO "seasoning" have more to do with cleaning all asphaltic substances from concerving oils and greases.

Thanks
Martin
« Last Edit: June 17, 2009, 02:01:19 PM by beleg2 »

Offline hanshi

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Re: Season the bore???
« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2009, 08:00:45 PM »
But there is a good use for "Bore Butter".  I keep going back to it as a resizing lube for cartridges.  It beats other waxes and what not.  I've never stuck a case with it.  I would also recommend it as a hunting patch lube.

I've never heard of Bore Butter being used as a resizing lube.  It really works that well?  I don't care for it as a patch lube and since using up my last supply haven't cared to buy any more.  Might re-think that in the future.
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northmn

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Re: Season the bore???
« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2009, 04:54:09 PM »
Crisco is cheaper than bore butter, works just as well for sizing cases, I have used it for tap lube and patch lube.  Try frying chicken in bore butter!!

DP

Offline hanshi

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Re: Season the bore???
« Reply #24 on: June 19, 2009, 06:05:09 PM »
Crisco is cheaper than bore butter, works just as well for sizing cases, I have used it for tap lube and patch lube.  Try frying chicken in bore butter!!

DP

Crisco for case sizing!  THAT, I will remember.  Come to think, it is pretty slick and you're right about it being cheap.  I've used Crisco for patch lube & Minie ball lube with great success.  I'll give it a try on cases next time I reload.
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.