Chambers oil or Permalyn Sealer?

[Tim]

I’m about to order the finishing supplies for my Kibler
SMR and need some advice. Which product would
You use over tannic acid and Iron Nitrate, Chambers oil finish
or Permalyn Sealer. I hear Jim Kibler likes to use
Just the Permalyn Sealer and others like the chambers
Oil finish. I don’t want a glossy finish at all just a finish
that is durable and looks good over the Iron Nitrate.

[ScottH]

I have successfully used Chambers oil finish over Kiblers products you mention. I would use it again, it works, put the finish on very thin.

[flehto]

I first apply 2 wipe on/ wipe off  coats of LMF sealer w/ a soak in time of approx. 10 mins. and when  dry, finger rub in 2 coats of Wahkon Bay Trucoat.  The Lancaster shown below has this finish..plus a light rub w/ a fluffy towel to achieve some sheen......Fred

[Dennis Glazener]

I found Chambers oil finish much easier to work with than Permalyn but that may have been my fault. Love the Chambers oil.
Dennus

[SingleMalt]

Tru-Oil is as close to a cooked linseed oil varnish as can be found today.  If some of those products mentioned are urethane-based, I'd leave them alone.  Over time, micro-cracks develop that allow moisture to enter and undermine the finish, making it peel off.

[Dphariss]

Permalyn is a plastic finish. It arrived on the ML scene with Bivens making the PA guns. He needed something fast. And the stuff will lose any elasticity it ever had in time and if used as a finish will craze I have been told by a reliable source. When you put this stuff, or Varathane etc, on wood it looks like plastic it kills the high lights and "depth" of the wood making it 2D in some cases. Some plastic finishes are worse than others. I had to strip a plastic coated stock years ago The plastic pealed up when I milled a slot in the wood for a tang sight base. It was a so-so looking piece of wood till I stripped it and put a shop cooked oil finish on it.  Natural oils/oil varnishes look better. If the oil/oil varnish is made like it was back in the day it will not require more than 1-2 coats on Maple and 4-5 on American Walnut.  If you look at the MSDS for any of these modern, low viscosity finishes you will see they have very little actual finish but a LOT of mineral spirits that evaporate away. They also are not good for the person applying them due to the solvent fumes.

This is plank sawn Hard Maple with one seal coat of shop made oil varnish cut with real turp and I think 2 coats of finish I put a second coat on the butt and realized it was a waste of time and never did the 2 coats past the wrist. Actually looks better now than it did then about 6 years ago.
If you cut Tru-Oil 50-50 with boiled oil from the hardware store its not too bad.  The Chambers oil is good according to a discussion with a friend. Most wood finishes are designed for the lowest common denominator especially furniture finish, furniture finish is invariably too hard for firearms use. Meant to never be outside or deal with rapid and extreme temp changes.

Dan

[Tim]

Permalyn is a plastic finish. It arrived on the ML scene with Bivens making the PA guns. He needed something fast. And the stuff will lose any elasticity it ever had in time and if used as a finish will craze I have been told by a reliable source. When you put this stuff, or Varathane etc, on wood it looks like plastic it kills the high lights and "depth" of the wood making it 2D in some cases. Some plastic finishes are worse than others. I had to strip a plastic coated stock years ago The plastic pealed up when I milled a slot in the wood for a tang sight base. It was a so-so looking piece of wood till I stripped it and put a shop cooked oil finish on it.  Natural oils/oil varnishes look better. If the oil/oil varnish is made like it was back in the day it will not require more than 1-2 coats on Maple and 4-5 on American Walnut.  If you look at the MSDS for any of these modern, low viscosity finishes you will see they have very little actual finish but a LOT of mineral spirits that evaporate away. They also are not good for the person applying them due to the solvent fumes.

This is plank sawn Hard Maple with one seal coat of shop made oil varnish cut with real turp and I think 2 coats of finish I put a second coat on the butt and realized it was a waste of time and never did the 2 coats past the wrist. Actually looks better now than it did then about 6 years ago.
If you cut Tru-Oil 50-50 with boiled oil from the hardware store its not too bad.  The Chambers oil is good according to a discussion with a friend. Most wood finishes are designed for the lowest common denominator especially furniture finish, furniture finish is invariably too hard for firearms use. Meant to never be outside or deal with rapid and extreme temp changes.

Dan

Have you heard of Tried and True oil varnish?
What brands of oil varnish could I use?
Thanks.

Tim

[rich pierce]

What’s true about Tried and True is I tried it and it truly took a long time to dry.

[davebozell]

I have used Chambers gun oil on two rifles and two pistols.  I wouldn't use anything else.  It's easy to use, and basically fool-proof.  It can easily be rubbed back with Scotchbrite if you don't like your results.

[satwel]

What’s true about Tried and True is I tried it and it truly took a long time to dry.


I used Tried and True once on a rifle and had the same experience. It took forever to dry and it turned out to be not very durable. After about about 5 years, the finish started to wear off on the left side of the wrist where my finger tips contact the stock. I refinished the rifle with the Chambers oil which is all I use now.

I used Permalyn on my English Officer's fusil. It is easy to apply, dries quickly, and looks good but I prefer the low sheen of the Chambers oil.

[Tim]

Anyone used any of the S B McWilliams finished on
A flintlock rifle stock? He has several products that use alkanet.

[Eric Krewson]

I am a fan of Chamber's finish but used Tru-oil on my last two builds, one was a TC so it didn't matter.

So, I had a bottle of Chambers finish to use on my Kibler SMR. I had some air conditioning guys over to work on my heat pump. The business owner hires ex cons and trains them so they can have a better chance at life in the future. I showed both guys my SMR build, a little on bow making and went back in the house from my shop.

The next day I went out to the shop to resume work on the SMR, reached for the last ramrod pipe and it was gone, so was my bottle of Chamber's finish and later I found one of my drawknives had walked off. I ended up using Tru-oil on the SMR, it looks really good.

The evening the guys worked on my unit the owner's fluke came up missing, the ex con said he put it in the truck but it was nowhere to be found.

I worked with a genuine klepto once and watched him in action, he had to steal something if he entered a room even if it was only a paper clip.

I guess the con had the same problem. I never mentioned my loss to the owner as he is an outstanding man trying to do the right thing for these guys who are down on their luck.

[P.W.Berkuta]

I have and still use three types of finishes depending on the rifle and what I have on hand -- they are: Tru-Oil, Permalyn Sealer, and Chambers Oil. I thin the Tru-Oil 50/50 with mineral spirits for the first three coats then use it as directed.  All the others I use as directed. I do rub back the Tru-Oil & Permalyn Sealer finish when done with rottenstone & water to cut the shine. I NEVER had an issue with any of these finishes and some of the finishes been on my rifles from the 70's. P.S. I have had to reply some of the finishes because of excessive handling of the firearm.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

I am firmly supportive of the Chambers Traditional Oil Stock Finish.  Have tried Tru Oil and Permalyn but they seem plastic to me.  I use a 1# cut of dewaxed Shellac to seal. Scrape back to bare wood and then apply Chambers' oil. 2-3 coats.

[moleeyes36]

I've never used Permalyn or Permalyn Sealer.  I read that some of you use the sealer but I don't see folks saying they use regular Permalyn.  Why is the sealer preferred over the regular Permalyn for the final finish?  And also, is the sealer not just Permalyn that's thinned with alcohol, mineral spirits or something of the sort? 

I've been a Chambers Oil user for some now.  But out of curiosity I'm going to try the Circa 1850 Tung Oil that Taylor speaks so highly of when the can I ordered from Canada arrives.

Mole Eyes

[45-110]

I have used tung oil for years and can say I have never had a issue. I do thin the stuff for application. A quart will out last me. I really like the sheen and touch ups blend. Have a safe full of stocks I used it on. I also reach for Tru oil occasionally, and thin as needed for use. I think like most things now days, its more in the skill of the application than the product.

[Darkhorse]

I  use the Chamber's oil finish to seal the outside and holes and mortices, then use 8 hand rubbed coats to finish. My deer rifle was built around 20 years ago and has been hunted every  year, in bad weather and good, and still looks like it did the day it was finished. No cracking or peeling, or swollen wood. I think that's pretty good for longetivity. Chambers oil is some good stuff. I have no desire to try anything else at this point.

[Mr. Bubbles]

I did my recent gun with Tried & True.  About 6-7 VERY thin coats.  Some of them were applied in mid June, and took between 1-2 weeks to set up for each coat.  Now, this winter, (for reasons of another thread I may start) I had to re-apply it to a toe piece repair area.  The good thing is that it went right on over the old stuff with no roughening needed for a mechanical bond.  The even better news is that it cured inside a day for each coat, sometimes in as little as 8 hours.  Like ANY finish, there is such a thing as putting it on too thick.  My goal is always to make the gun look like it IS finished, but not like it has any finish ON it.

Don't know about the durability thing yet, but take it on faith that your experience is true.

[dogcatcher]

A year ago I ran across this article.  https://www.sportingshooter.co.uk/features/how-to-refinish-a-wooden-stock-1-5319016

Basically a homemade brew for gunstocks using linseed oil and a few other things.  I had all pf the stuff, so I mixed up a batch and used it on some of my woodturnings.  Time consuming, not a fast finish, but it will soak into the wood offering more protection than the stuff sitting on the top of the wood.  I also made the alkanet oil, I found alkanet root on eBay.  I used sun converted flaxseed oil for that concoction, again time consuming, but I was always taught there is no such thing as a fast and easy finish, so I take my time on the finish, the last final step. 

[M. E. Pering]

I have used Permalyn Sealer, but never have I gotten the chance to use the Chambers oil.  I will have to give it a try now that I see so many speak so highly of it.  But this is my method:

I seal the stock, inside and out, with one coat of Permalyn, as directed, making sure I get all excess off.  Wait 24 hours.  I then give the internals one more coat of Permalyn, and with excess.  Wait 24 hours.  I then Scotch-brite the exterior and using just a few drops of BLO, proceed to rub it into the stock.  I mean a few drops, and I mean rub.  My palms get quite hot during this process, so frequent breaks are required.  After rubbing that coat in, which usually takes about half an hour to an hour, it feels just tacky to the  touch, and I hang it to dry for 24 hours.  I check it after that, and if it feels tacky (it usually doesn't unless the humidity is extremely high), I rub it down again.  If it feels dry, I let it hang another 24 hours.  After this, I smell it.  It should smell like artist's oil paint, but only faintly, a difficult thing for me to describe.  If I feel it need more time, I will give it another 24 hours.  If I feel it is ready, I will put just one drop in my palm, and rub it in again.  This is usually all I do to finish my stocks.

Just 1 exterior coat of the Permalyn, and 2 coats of the BLO, and it is usually good enough for the finish I am looking for:







Matt

[smallpatch]

I've been doing this, as many here have for quite a while. I've never seen anything that compares with Chambers as far as ease of use and durability, without the plastic shine.  The finish is IN the wood, not ON the wood.  If i want added waterproofing, I spray on a couple of coats of spar varnish, let it dry, put on another coat of Chambers with a scotchbrite pad, and you're done.  Seems to be compatible with most any other finish.
I won't use anything else.

[deepcreekdale]

I have used both as well for years, both end up looking great if used according to instructions. That being said, Chambers finish is easier to use, doesn't seem to develop runs. It seems almost idiot proof so it is the one for me now. I did find the Permalyn seemed to harden in the can fairly quickly so I make sure I put marbles in the can to bring the finish to the top and seal the lid with a piece of wax paper.

[moleeyes36]

I have used both as well for years, both end up looking great if used according to instructions. That being said, Chambers finish is easier to use, doesn't seem to develop runs. It seems almost idiot proof so it is the one for me now. I did find the Permalyn seemed to harden in the can fairly quickly so I make sure I put marbles in the can to bring the finish to the top and seal the lid with a piece of wax paper.

Dale,

Are you using Permalyn Sealer or regular Permalyn finish?  And do you know if Permalyn Sealer is just a thinned out version of Permalyn?   Thanks.

Mole Eyes

[Jim Kibler]

My take...  Any number of finishes can work well in the right hands. 

To the original question.  I've used Chambers oil in the past and it worked okay, but it seemed a little soft and not as durable as I might prefer.  Maybe I wasn't using it properly, though.
Depending on the gun, I use permalyn sealer some of the time.  It is very durable, but if not used carefully can have a bit of a harsh look.  Putting it on in very thin coats is important.  I also rub back the finish in some way.  I've heard people contend that it cracks, etc. but I've never seen an example and frankly have no concern about this they way I use it.

Other finishes I use are Tried and True Oil Varnish.  Think coats and sunlight are important.  With sunlight, drying time is pretty reasonable.

I also cooked up a big batch of leaded oil a few years ago and have found it to be very good.

As an aside, I don't think anyone would have very good success identifying finish on completed quality work.  Knowing what some of the better builders use, I think some would be surprised.

[Ed Wenger]

Mole Eyes...., yes, the Permalyn sealer and finish are the same product.  The sealer is just thinned out more.


           Ed