Steel Shot

[Longknife]

OK, I guess the time has come, I have been invited to go duck hunting and I just MUST take A M-Loader. Hevi shot is not an option at $170.00 for 7 pounds. Bismuth might be in the running at $66.50 for 7 pounds and steel sounds real good at $17.99 for 10 pounds. The only gun I have that will handle steel is  a Pedersoli  SXS 10 ga., rt. cyl. and left mod. Has anybody experimented with steel in one of these? Here is an interesting article that actually states that a properly patterened steel load is actually better (in a suppository gun) Thanks, Ed


http://www.gunnersden.com/index.htm.steelvslead.html

[BrownBear]

I haven't used steel in ML's, but in fact when the requirement for steel finally came to Alaska it forced me to quit ML waterfowl hunting after many years at it.  I don't have any problems with steel shot and it's performance on birds, but at that time anyway and with components then available, it was sure going to be hard on shotgun bores.

I'll be watching this thread closely because I'm dying to get back at it, but not when the shot is $170 for 7 pounds.  Sheesh.....  Or words to that effect.

BTW-  Some unsolicited advice.  That article is pretty well right on in the fact that steel can do the job on waterfowl when you use it right.  At the ranges I shoot (less than 40 yards, and usually less than 30), it's a stone killer.

But..... I repeat- BUT!!!

I'd pass on the advice to jump up two sizes, and instead go three sizes.  And I'd pay lots of attention to high velocity.  My normal lead shot load was #6 at around 1100 fps.  But optimum performance on ducks with steel didn't really surface for me until I went to #3 shot for most of the season, then #2 late in the season with heavily feathered birds.  It also kills better and better, the faster and faster you throw it.  When it comes to a tradeoff between charge weight and velocity, I'll take velocity every single time.  The heck with those heavy 3" mag charges going slow.  I want the 1 1/8 oz charges smoking out at 1500fps.  Even better is a 1 oz handload going faster.  You might as well take advantage of the great patterns by lightening the shot charge while popping the velocity.

For geese, I'd go ahead and buy the Hevishot or potentially cheaper, the Tungsten Matrix shot such as Kent loads in their shells.  In my experience even T shot in a 3.5" 12 gauge shell is marginal for geese at 40 yards.  The pattern gets really thin and the shot don't penetrate well.  Lots of crippling.  But the size #2 tungsten matrix Kent loads kill like lightning at 40 yards!!!  Even in a 3" shell.  In a 3.5" load they're reliable killers even further.

In the lead shot days my normal muzzleloader range limit for both ducks and geese was 30 yards.  I'd stick by that if I used steel today, and probably wouldn't feel any handicap for the change in shot. 

[T*O*F]

Ed,
Your Pedersoli double should have chrome lined bores making it OK for steel shot.  Mine does, but it might depend on the age.  I don't know if they've been doing that since they were introduced.

[northmn]

Has Bismuth made a comeback?  Last I priced the stuff was at about $100 for 7 pounds.  I have used steel since lead was banned, and it isn't all that bad.  We have had the discussion on steel in other threads.  I strongly suggest you get a wad like the LBC (Limited Bore Contact) wad out of Ballistic Products (Go to their site under that name) and slit them full length and make 5 or 6 slits. Use a card wad between the plastic and the powder.  You may even try lubing the wad with a good BP lube.  Crisco would work. Some have claimed that unless loaded with about 100 grains of 2F to 1 1/8 ounce of shot they will stay with the load like a slug.  Actually 100 grains to 1 1/8 isn't that bad of load.  Don't know the ducks you are hunting IE Mallards, pintails or whatever but at closer ranges like 30 yards or so 3's and 2's work well.  Steel is better than the old cheap chilled shot economy loads and not as good as better handloads with plated shot.  It smashes bones as it does not deform, may not penetrate as deep as lead but still kills ducks.  Hunters really got POed when they required steel and many quit hunting.  There has been a lot of BS about it since.  The most memorable retrieves my Chesapekes made were on crippled ducks shot by lead.  Lead didn't kill like lightening either, except for some memories of great shots.

DP

[roundball]

Based upon the findings in that article, with steel's tighter patterns through little or no deformation, seems a cylinder bore ML would be fine, eliminating any concerns about steel going through a choke.

My largest flint smoothbore is a GM .20ga barrel...need to find or make a sleeve or cup to protect the bore and try some geese this coming fall/winter...a flock of them winters around a farmer's pond that butts up agaoinst a woodline...I wouldn't lose any sleep at all over setting up a simple blind in the edge of the trees and popping one in the head the same way I shoot turkeys...just need to protect my bore

[BrownBear]

Do I recall correctly that you had that barrel jug choked?  I was kinda wondering about steel and jugs.

On the cylinder bore, my old 12 SXS was cylinder bored, and I controlled pattern by building "choke" into the plastic wad columns I used (WAA12RED).  Leave the petals full length and it would throw a decent MOD.  Cut them half length and you'd be shooting IC.  Cut them off altogether and you'd be back to a nice smooth CYL. 

Since I did most of my shooting with the IC barrel first and seldom needed the second barrel, I got in the habit of precutting a bunch of wads.  After loading I would slip one up over the nozzle of my shot snake, where it was held in place by a couple of turns from one of my daughters elastic hair bands.  Just hit the release on the snake and let it close, then shove the wad down the bore.  When you pulled the snake nozzle back out, the wad would be down the bore far enough to contain the shot and the band would stay on the snake.  May not be kosher to seat the wad with the shot already in it, but it sure was fast and easy. 

Course my daughter was less compeition with her hair down in her eyes!   

[roundball]

I've got a couple...one is jug choked FULL, the other is jug choked IMP CYL PLUS
(half way between IC and Mod)

With a jug choke's design actually being an expansion chamber honed into the bore and coming no closer than an inch to the original muzzle, the muzzle is still at cylinder bore diameter.

And if I used any kind of sleeve or shot cup...the shot would ne be ablke to expand out into the expansion chamber and the chamber would be bypassed...leaving the barrels to act like the original cylinder bores that they were.

I really just want to find a thin, firm but flexible, sheet of plastic that I can cut some sleeves out of...I can go to places like Joanne's Fabrics to buy patch material...I need to find a place that has some sort of sheets of plastic I can buy...

[northmn]

I have tried several types of plastic for steel ans most come through, however milk jug plastic or pop bottle plastic does not do too bad if you cut two sleeves.  One half or one third the height of the other and put the short one inside the longer one.  The set back forces on shot are such that a little more cushioning in the bottom don't hurt.  Look at commercial wads.  Another option recommended by both Precision Reloading and Ballistic Products is Mylar, which comes in sheets and can be cut to size.  It supposed to be steel proof.

DP

[roundball]

"...however milk jug plastic or pop bottle plastic does not do too bad if you cut two sleeves...one half or one third the height of the other and put the short one inside the longer one.  The set back forces on shot are such that a little more cushioning in the bottom don't hurt...."

"...Another option recommended by both Precision Reloading and Ballistic Products is Mylar, which comes in sheets and can be cut to size.  It supposed to be steel proof..."
DP

Sounds like a couple of great tips...thank you!

[omark]

i have shot a LITTLE bit of steel in my navy arms mag. i use an over powder wad, then a lubed felt wad then a steel shot cup for modern guns. to date it hasnt hurt the bores any, but it is unchoked and i havent done it very much. fwiw

[Daryl]

 The only reason to use a cushion wad is to improve patterns - as in all modern lead shot loads.  Since the steel or iron shot doesn't deform from setback, no fibre wad is necessary for the steel shot's protection.  All avenues of load compostion must be tried sometimes when patterning & a cushion wad may or may not improve your patterning results.

[Evil Monkey]

The only reason to use a cushion wad is to improve patterns -

Actually, I use the cushion wad as a 'wiper wad' in my ML's. I soak them in bear grease (well, I just roll the edges in it actually) and they wipe the bore with each loading and i can shoot all day and the last wads go down the bore just as easily as the first.

[Daryl]

spot-on old ape!  I was referrencing to pattern quality only and the cushion wad's lack of meaning for that purpose - nay - I did not even consider fouling in my disertation. woe is me.

[northmn]

That has always been a point on where I disagreed with Starr.  Starr recommended two card wads, which work for patterns, but most like a lubed wad as a cleaner wad.   For trap matches I used to drop them in a water container, spit on them or whatever.  Even for hunting one can use a commercial lube.  One point is that you only need about a 1/4 thick filler wad.  Reread BrownBears comments concerning steel and velocity.  While I do not disagree, with Black Powder you aren't generally going to get as high of velocity with a shot charge.  I suppose you could, but in most lighter weight guns it would kick like the proverbial mule.  For ducks I have always found steel 2's to be about the same as lead 4's at reasonable ranges.  The rule of 2 only holds for a narrow range of pellets.  About in the category of 3's to BB's in steel.  It is best to forget about lead conversion and just know what works for what.  Steel 5's at 245 per ounce (depending on who's chart you look at) work very well for me on both grouse and close range pheasants.  2's deliver a good pattern and shock.  1's aren't all bad on mallards and late pheasants.  One size I never had much luck with is steel 4's and do not know why.  With lower velocities BP loads may want a little larger pellet, but mostly you want to keep it close as in 30-40 yards.  Some lead loads are effective even at less than 1100 fps and steel can be also.

DP