Double balling

[smylee grouch]

Helmut, have you ever tested those double ball loads over a cronograph?(sp) Just wondering what the energy of one of those balls is at say 70M.

[HelmutKutz]

Helmut, have you ever tested those double ball loads over a cronograph?(sp) Just wondering what the energy of one of those balls is at say 70M.

I have tested three ball in 50c rifle.
Average spread 165mm
70m velocity 359m/s @ 753 joules each ball

[smylee grouch]

Those figures sound almost impressive, what powder charge where you using?

[Daryl]

359 is 1,177.8 fps
.490ball is about 177gr. so 545fpe ea. X 3 = 1,645fpe total
165mm is 6.5".

[smylee grouch]

I don't know how those figures would compare with my 62 shooting a 610 ball-aprox. 340 gr with 125 gr. swiss 1&1/2 f because I havent run the loads over a chrono yet. The first three Bears I shot all droped within sight, one was 300# the other two were 240# all shot with pure lead ball with no exit, the last two I shot were same load but a small % of tin in the mix and both were total pass through, one was over 500# the other was 220# and they went 20 yds each. That gun shoots one hole groups at 50 Yds. so I guess I will stik with the single ball. Works for me.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

No kidding!!

[HelmutKutz]

Smylee,
110 grains volume
FF granulation
Flintlock.


Daryl,
Thank you and my apologies. I should have converted to Imperial units for this forum.

[Daryl]

NP- my hunting rifle uses one ball. It's .682" in diameter, weighs 482gr. and is driven by 165gr. 2f GOEX.
It polaxes moose.

[Davemuzz]

If I get this right the load data is as follows:

110gr. FF
Projectile(s) weight of 3 .490RB =525gr.
Velocity = 1,178fps
Energy = 556ft\lb each or 1,668 total energy at muzzle.


Now, looking at loading a single projectile of a 50 caliber as follows:

90gr FF
Projectile weight = 175gr
Velocity = 1,861
Energy = 1,631

Now, in comparing the two loads.....and what each individual projectile's downrange energy would be, I get the following:

                     3\ball   Single
Velocity              1178     1861
energy at 50yds   505   1243
energy at 75yds   490   1195
energy at 100yds   476   1148

So, if you used the 3 ball load for large game, the downrange energy of each individual RB is less than half that of shooting a single RB from the rifle.

It's likely just my preference, but I would much rather hit the deer with one projectile with excellent energy vs hitting it with 3 projectiles of less than half the value.

Plus, I wonder what the long term effect of the higher pressures of attempting to push 3-times the projectile weight down the barrel would be.

Again, likely just me, but I'd chose a one projectile load.

FIWI

[Daryl]

I think too many people think in terms of FPE actually meaning or having something to do with killing power.

Put a 1/2" hole through it's lungs and your hunt is over. I don't care if it's a deer, bear, moose or elk.

Shoot it in the guts and you will likely lose it, no mater how many holes through it's guts you make.

[HelmutKutz]

Davemuzz you are not understanding how multiball works.

753j = 556 fpe per ball @ 70m/76y thus combined energy imparted to animal is 2259j/1668 fpe.
If I read your data correctly, single ball carries only 1195 fpe @ 75y or 473 fpe less.

Three balls make three wound channels thus three times the physical damage which means three times more bleeding.

Compare to shotgun where one #6 pellet 2.0grain at 40y delivers 2.5 fpe and unless the one happens to hit the brain or spine, it will not kill the bird quickly but same bird hit with 6 pellets having total energy 15 fpe bird dies quickly.

[Davemuzz]

Davemuzz you are not understanding how multiball works.

753j = 556 fpe per ball @ 70m/76y thus combined energy imparted to animal is 2259j/1668 fpe.
If I read your data correctly, single ball carries only 1195 fpe @ 75y or 473 fpe less.

Three balls make three wound channels thus three times the physical damage which means three times more bleeding.

Compare to shotgun where one #6 pellet 2.0grain at 40y delivers 2.5 fpe and unless the one happens to hit the brain or spine, it will not kill the bird quickly but same bird hit with 6 pellets having total energy 15 fpe bird dies quickly.

Well, I think I respectively disagree with your calculations of how much energy each ball has when it impacts the target.

And I'll use your example of shotgun pellets to demonstrate my point. Ie:

Heavy moving mass at the same velocity will ALWAYS have greater momentum (Momentum = mass x velocity) and more energy than a lighter weight mass. Ie:....look at your shotgun example. The 6 heavier pellets have more energy than 36 pellets (lighter weight pellets) at any range, at the same velocity. (I also look at it this way....if you have to stop either a bicycle coming at you at 10mph, or a loaded cement truck at 10mph, which one do you elect to stop?)

On the Hornady web site, https://www.hornady.com/team-hornady/ballistic-calculators/#!/ using a 5gr projectile and then a 10gr projectile moving at the same velocity...1,150fps, the 5gr. has ME of 15ft\lbs, and the 10gr has ME of 29ft\lbs.

In the three ball your total energy calculation is correct, however we are dealing with three separate projectiles.....three different pieces of mass. If the 3 balls were all "connected" or fused together, then we would have more energy.....but again, just from one projectile.

You can shoot a bullet at 1,100fps at a 40-degree angle, and it will travel quite far before it hits a peak curve, however if you shoot 100 #6 bird shot at the same velocity, it will reach the curve much faster, and the curve will be much lower. Less mass......less momentum.

[smylee grouch]

Well here I go again,wondering. If you have a 3 ball load ,each ball weighs 100 gr vs. a single 300 gr. ball-the 3 -100 gr. load hits with three balls with less energy per ball thus each ball does less damage-less expansion,less tissue damage and probably less penitration(sp) as compared to a single 300 gr. ball. On top of all that the accuracy aspect will come into play which is of vital importance as shot placement is one of the most important components of a clean kill. I think the single ball will out shoot a three ball load any day of the week. Any thoughts?

[rollingb]

You fellas are makin' my head hurt! LOL

[HelmutKutz]

Davemuzz, you can disagree with me as much as pleases you but you can not disagree with the results. Animals, even charging animals drop within feet not yards. Depending on size of animal and impact area most times balls completely penetrate the vitals with very good wound channels. I welcome your disagreement but ask how many deer and bear have fallen from 32c buckshot?

[smylee grouch]

Disagreement's , when respectful can be healthy and generate some interesting discussions. Ain't techno fun!   

[Daryl]

Davemuzz, you can disagree with me as much as pleases you but you can not disagree with the results. Animals, even charging animals drop within feet not yards. Depending on size of animal and impact area most times balls completely penetrate the vitals with very good wound channels. I welcome your disagreement but ask how many deer and bear have fallen from 32c buckshot?

I can't answer that Helmut, but can add that an Ontario cousin stopped using .32 buckshot after losing 2 whitetail bucks. He went to a single projectile and then, they dropped on the spot for him, or within 2 or 3 steps. All shooting inside 30 yards.

[Davemuzz]

Davemuzz, you can disagree with me as much as pleases you but you can not disagree with the results. Animals, even charging animals drop within feet not yards. Depending on size of animal and impact area most times balls completely penetrate the vitals with very good wound channels. I welcome your disagreement but ask how many deer and bear have fallen from 32c buckshot?

I can't answer how many have dropped from 32c buckshot as in Pennsylvania buckshot is illegal to use on deer. But I KNOW that shooting a 405gr. lead bullet from a 45-70 at 1,567fps will drop every whitetail in it's tracks. There is no blood trail as I see where the whitetail has dropped.

I know my calculations are correct.....just as I know smacking a whitetail with one projectile from a .50 or .54 caliber is all that's needed to have venison for dinner that night.

Here's my recent doe kill from my .54 cal using 85gr FFF and a PRB:



FWIW

[HelmutKutz]

I have hunted all manner of game on four continents and can assure you multi-ball and buck & ball loads came about to serve a purpose which they have done quite well. There's no telling how many animals including boar, deer and bear have fallen to these loads. I have seen many little gazelle smaller than 70 pound as well as boar even just 120 pound continue running 50m to 100m or more after taking solid lung hits from 9,3x62 and larger bore rifles with expanding bullets and single round ball. Reason because energy is wasted and not transferred to animal. Same animals hit with two or three 50c or larger round ball will drop within feet not meters/yards because energy is used making damage to animal. When bullet/ball leaves the animal, all remaining velocity and energy are wasted. Hunting dangerous game is done normally in thick cover where shots are close and fast. An animal not going down in feet will cause great harm or death which is why such loads were used. I have seen both what large round ball will do single and in loads of two or three which is why when legal to do so I always choose more is better. If not then bigger is better.

[Davemuzz]

Shot placement on any game animal is key. What causes death is not the energy of the projectile, but what damage the projectile can do to either the blood flow system, or the nervous system.

I've never been one who believes that the bullet must remain in the animal in order to perform "better" (faster kill) vs a projectile that passes thru. IMHO, the pass thru now provides two channels of blood letting.

And size does matter. A larger diameter bullet makes a bigger hole....and can sever more "things" that you want to sever.

I've killed whitetail with a 100gr 3 blade arrow that have dropped on the spot.....and some that have ran at most 100 yards. It's all about placement. Cut the top of the heart or sever the spine and usually it's a DRT episode. Double lung and they will run up to 100 yards.

I can see some "argument" for the 3 ball.....OTOH.....none of those 3 ball projectiles will likely pass thru a big game animal at 50 yards or beyond. And how deep the projectile goes will have a big effect on how quickly the animal dies.

I'll shot one heavy ball. They have always worked well for me.

[hanshi]

I think too many people think in terms of FPE actually meaning or having something to do with killing power.

I couldn't agree more!  Muzzleloaders are low energy arms and, to repeat myself, don't kill using energy figures.  FPE generally matters in modern cartridges but not in prb shooters.

[HelmutKutz]

I think too many people think in terms of FPE actually meaning or having something to do with killing power.

I couldn't agree more!  Muzzleloaders are low energy arms and, to repeat myself, don't kill using energy figures.  FPE generally matters in modern cartridges but not in prb shooters.

One must have energy transfer no matter what the weapon or projectile. The expediency of termination is determined by how effectively the energy is transferred to the target. The more effectively the available energy is transferred, the quicker termination will be. Broadhead and field point arrows come with same mass and velocity and same energy but only broadhead transfers energy efficiently for terminal effect. If compared one ball to three balls one ball may have more total energy than one of the three but the three balls use more energy efficiently. Just for discussion say single ball uses 60% of total energy efficiently but three balls use 90% efficiently, even if one has more total it uses far e less efficiently. Energy must always be considered because termination is only achieved through transfer of energy no matter if it is by ball, arrow, rock or club all require energy transfer.

[Davemuzz]

... Just for discussion say single ball uses 60% of total energy efficiently but three balls use 90% efficiently, even if one has more total it uses far e less efficiently. ...

I don't know where you get the 60%\90% energy efficiently numbers.....in fact, I don't know what the definition of "energy efficiency" is. However, 60% of one 3-ball would be 455-ft\lbs at 50 yards and one ball would be 746-ft\lbs.

Still like the one ball.

FWIW

[smylee grouch]

Shot placement is always a factor in a clean kill but on some types of game I want total pass through even if I don't have what ever energy efficiency is because on game such as long hair with a lot of fat under hide, as in Bear, two holes leave a better blood trail, IMHO.

[HelmutKutz]

... Just for discussion say single ball uses 60% of total energy efficiently but three balls use 90% efficiently, even if one has more total it uses far e less efficiently. ...

I don't know where you get the 60%\90% energy efficiently numbers.....in fact, I don't know what the definition of "energy efficiency" is. However, 60% of one 3-ball would be 455-ft\lbs at 50 yards and one ball would be 746-ft\lbs.

Still like the one ball.

FWIW

Using a soft lead round ball that creates pass-through hole one can assume maximum of roughly 60% energy usage by thumb rule for factors of average ball deformation and wound channel. The actual amount will vary of course by individual situation and is typically much less but 60% is maximum one can expect from projectile that does pass-through. For sake of argument we use your 1195 fpe value for single 50c ball at 180 grain which at maximum 60% efficiency value gives 717 fpe transferred to animal. With 1668 fpe for three-ball load even if one only still assumes the same 60% energy transfer per ball the value is 1000 fpe transferred to animal which means 40% more energy than single ball. So also consider single ball impact off by one inch misses solid vital hit meaning animal runs longer distance and time before expiring but three balls creating three times the wound channel still means very rapid kill.