Author Topic: Web Missing on Original Guns  (Read 1211 times)

Offline Nhgrants

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Web Missing on Original Guns
« on: January 19, 2019, 06:31:54 PM »
Just curious if anyone has seen a section of the web missing toward the breech on an original.
Because of drill error for the ram rod, the web got paper thin toward of the breech.  With  chisel I opened
The up and lowers the bottom of the ram rod hole about a 1/8 inch. This is  now a mortise 3/8 wide by 1/2 deep
And about 4 inches long.  Is a really necessary to glue bc a piece of wood for the missing web?

The reason I asked about originals is understand what they would have done without having the water resistant  adhesives that we have today.  Thanks

Offline Robby

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Re: Web Missing on Original Guns
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2019, 06:37:47 PM »
It's probably not necessary but I would neatly inlet a piece  and finish.
Robby
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Offline louieparker

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Re: Web Missing on Original Guns
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2019, 06:52:17 PM »
Some original didn't have the ramrod hole drilled . A place for the ramrod was cut down from the barrel channel  for the rod .. In other words no web at all from rear ramrod pipe to the breech.  ..LP

Offline smart dog

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Re: Web Missing on Original Guns
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2019, 06:57:37 PM »
Hi,
This also implies that your forward lock bolt will not clear the ramrod and just about hit the middle of it.  In your shoes, I would take the opportunity of the access to the ramrod hole through the barrel channel and gouge or using a round burr on a Dremel, rout the bottom of the ramrod hole deeper even if it means opening up the hole for it full length. Then glue wood the thickness of the web you desire into the bottom of the barrel channel.  When dry, make sure your ramrod groove is correctly positioned and if that was the source of your problem drilling, fix it.  Then re-drill the ramrod hole. You will already have a correct hole in place so the drill should follow that as it clears out any excess wood.  Finally, I finish my barrel channels with a varnish thin layer of Acra Glass. Doing that will seal over the wood spliced into the bottom of the barrel channel.  This has happened to me and that is how I fix it.

dave
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Offline jerrywh

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Re: Web Missing on Original Guns
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2019, 07:51:27 PM »
  Mistakes on originals do not excuse us from making the same mistake now.  I see this many times.
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Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Web Missing on Original Guns
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2019, 08:20:31 PM »
I have seen quite a number of pieces with the missing wood as you mention, of varying lengths.  Typically then a notch is cut into the bottom of the barrel to permit a bit of extra room for the forward lock bolt.  I don't believe any relief was cut from inside the barrel channel, especially given that the inner ends of the rammer are always tapered so you don't need a full 3/8 or whatever there anyway.

This being said, given modern liability concerns, I've gotten a bit leery about cutting notches in barrels.  Something I think about a lot more now, unfortunately.
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Offline BarryE

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Re: Web Missing on Original Guns
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2019, 11:01:28 PM »
Why is this a mistake.  Could it be that the old timers simply were not concerned about it.  In turn, if it was good enough for them, who is to say it is a mistake today.  If it is a problem, why not make the mainspring narrower to avoid the issue?

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Web Missing on Original Guns
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2019, 11:36:59 PM »
BarryE - I don't think he's talking about the wood between the mainspring/lock mortise and the rammer hole or barrel channel.  Many original guns with large breeches essentially have nothing but a huge 'hole' for a lock mortise and into the breech area, especially given wide mainsprings.  I've seen barrels with the lower oblique flat chiseled out to allow more clearance for the mainspring, as opposed to thinning of the mainspring!  What is most important is that the breech plug tang and I would say at least an inch of the entire breech area (bottom and to the rear) are all well-inlet and mated well to the wood.

I thought we are talking about the web of wood between the bottom of the barrel and the rammer hole.  Is this correct?  The only issues that generally are involved there are the clearance for the forward lock bolt and clearance for the first barrel lug (usually between the breech and entry pipe).

It's not always a "mistake:"  especially with Lehigh type rifles, I often run the rammer hole right up practically into (and often, actually into) the barrel channel at the breech.  If you have a barrel with a somewhat notable flare at the breech end, it's a situation you're almost inevitably going to deal with unless you want a big fat, clunky forearm. 
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Offline Nhgrants

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Re: Web Missing on Original Guns
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2019, 02:16:13 AM »
Not talking about the lock Mortise. When I mentioned the word mortise, it was what i cut thru the web at the bottom of the barrel channel.

Offline Curtis

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Re: Web Missing on Original Guns
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2019, 07:49:19 AM »
Nhgrants, here is what I did to fix a similar problem, it is much like part of what Dave (smart dog) described.

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=25674.0

Hope it helps some.

Curtis
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Offline davec2

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Re: Web Missing on Original Guns
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2019, 08:18:46 AM »
I had a ram rod drill come up into the barrel channel on a highly figured piece of maple.  I thought about doing a repair like Curtis showed, but I got lazy.  I cut out the floor of the barrel channel and deepened the groove to get the ram rod back into the correct location.  Then I got a piece of thin walled (hobby shop type) brass tube that the ram rod just slid into.  I put the brass tube in the groove and sealed the front and back ends with a very small amount of 5 minute epoxy.  Once that set and I was sure the tube ends were sealed, I filled that area inside the barrel channel with Acra Glass, sprayed the barrel with separator, and then clamped the barrel in place to let it cure.  When finished, I had a brass lined ram rod hole embedded in Acra Glass.  The repair is not at all traditional but made the stock really strong in that area.
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Web Missing on Original Guns
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2019, 05:35:59 PM »
I had a ram rod drill come up into the barrel channel on a highly figured piece of maple.  I thought about doing a repair like Curtis showed, but I got lazy.  I cut out the floor of the barrel channel and deepened the groove to get the ram rod back into the correct location.  Then I got a piece of thin walled (hobby shop type) brass tube that the ram rod just slid into.  I put the brass tube in the groove and sealed the front and back ends with a very small amount of 5 minute epoxy.  Once that set and I was sure the tube ends were sealed, I filled that area inside the barrel channel with Acra Glass, sprayed the barrel with separator, and then clamped the barrel in place to let it cure.  When finished, I had a brass lined ram rod hole embedded in Acra Glass.  The repair is not at all traditional but made the stock really strong in that area.
That's nifty, never would have thought of that. I have fixed this problem several ways. Notched the barrel so the screw would pass so I didn't have to mess with it much. I have also hogged out all the wood so the ramrod would go in properly then inlet popsicle sticks over the top and glued them in, and also hogged out the channel and went on with life and glued nothing over the top. If I can get away with it I like the notching the barrel method.
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Offline BarryE

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Re: Web Missing on Original Guns
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2019, 06:03:57 PM »
I stand corrected.  My bad for reading the lock mortise into the question. I have removed the bottom of the barrel channel to modify the ramrod channel on precut stocks because the space there was inadequate.  After enlarging it, I glued a piece of wood back into the area I removed and blended it back into the bottom of the barrel channel.  The ramrod being off one way or the other on a slim gun is a bit of a problem.

Offline Turtle

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Re: Web Missing on Original Guns
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2019, 09:34:48 PM »
 TVM shaped stocks come with a routed groove most of the way from the breech
to the entry thimble. I have build many base level guns with their stocks unmodified with no problems. I was on a woodswalk with a man who had one and he fell onto his gun-didn't break. I think the barrel strengthens the stock enough in this area.

Offline Ross Dillion

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Re: Web Missing on Original Guns
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2019, 10:56:12 PM »
Iíve used glass bedding on several rifles and kits that have had this ramrod groove in the barrel channel. I wrap the ramrod in painters tape and then coat it with the release agent. Then apply the glass bedding and clamp the barrel in. Itís always worked well for me and I feel it should really strengthen the stock in that area. I always glass bed the rear portion of the breech to strengthen that area.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Web Missing on Original Guns
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2019, 10:58:57 PM »
A lot of fullstock late percussion working class rifles have the ďroutedĒ ramrod hole in the forestock.  My 4 originals were all done that way.
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Offline frogwalking

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Re: Web Missing on Original Guns
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2019, 03:44:01 AM »
I have seen an  original Tennessee/North Carolina mountain rifle with the ramrod hole intentionally gouged out under the breech end.  I guess the smith did not want to even try to drill a ramrod hole that deep.  The stock only had about 3 inches drilled from the lower thimble (if it had one).
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Offline jerrywh

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Re: Web Missing on Original Guns
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2019, 04:20:42 AM »
Why is this a mistake.  Could it be that the old timers simply were not concerned about it.  In turn, if it was good enough for them, who is to say it is a mistake today.  If it is a problem, why not make the mainspring narrower to avoid the issue?
   
Again all old timers did not think the same just as today.  Some of them were very conscientious and some didn't give a darn. One mistake begets another to cover it up. What  does one have in the end?  I admire those who strive for perfection. Everybody makes mistakes but there is a correct way to do repairs. Examples like DaveC2 gives is a good way to repair this type of mistake. In the past I have just routed a groove in the bottom or the barrel channel and glued in a piece of wood on top of a well waxed ramrod dowel. Then stained the barrel channel.  The repair was invisible. Anybody who has drilled enough RR channels has had some come out the barrel channel worse yet the bottom. It's what you do about it that counts.  Masters at most trades are the ones who know how to fix the mistakes. Not just my opinion.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2019, 08:46:16 PM by jerrywh »
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Offline rich pierce

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Re: Web Missing on Original Guns
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2019, 05:51:44 AM »
Just because itís found on some late guns doesnít mean itíd be right on a Bonewitz.
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