Author Topic: still another Kibler Colonial rifle  (Read 8195 times)

Offline AndyThomas

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still another Kibler Colonial rifle
« on: January 20, 2019, 03:43:18 PM »
This rifle will be raffled off by the guys at Martin's Station beginning in a couple of months. I'll let ALR know more about it later. It will likely be at the Knoxville show in April.

We used 131 and 125 in Rifles of Colonial America for most of the shaping and other details. RCA 131 is of course the Adam Haymaker rifle, likely made by AH in Winchester, VA in about 1770. RCA 125, a smooth rifle also likely made in the 1770's, was probably made in what is now SWVA/EastTN based on the placement of the rear barrel pin, which is just in front of the rear thimble. The cheek carving is from Simon Lauck (see Gunsmiths of Virginia, page 85, likely 1790's, but…). So it has a VA flavor to it!

Two things were done to make it appear more like the originals. The barrel was shortened about 1/8” to remove the modern crown, and the muzzle was coned with a Joe Wood tool, which became the new crown. Then the rifling was flared out like a lot of the old rifles. Also, one of Barbie's carbon steel Black(?)Lightening touchhole liners was used.

It weighs 9lb 3oz. That's in a 54 caliber. A 50 would weigh about 1/2 lb more. The trigger pull is 13 7/8” and the balance point is about 25 1/2” from the butt. Perhaps a little long and heavy for the little people. I'm 5'5”, 140lbs (and 73 years old, which does make a difference!).  My personal iron/walnut rifle, made around a 50 caliber, C-weight, Rice Reading barrel, comes in at about 13”, 23 1/2”, and 8lb even.

Although the kit stock looks very skinny in the photos, there's still a lot of wood there. What Kibler has done is make the stock somewhat skinny where originals are shinny and somewhat plump where the old rifles vary. You can't just assemble it, sand it, and finish it (if period correctness is a requirement). It needs some shaping (and some carving, in my opinion). Not as much as other kits, of course, but still some shaping is required (for PC). This plumpness allows the stock to be modified to suit your needs. For instance, the stock has a lot of curve in the toe and the buttpiece is quite tall. We shortened the buttpiece to 4 7/8”, the same as RCA 131, which also made the toe straighter. The comb was very fat and blunt compared to both RCA 125 and 131. We took about 1/8” off the top of the wrist to make it similar to those rifles. And the rear thimble was filed up similar to RCA 125.

This would be a great kit for one of those Kit Building classes I see advertised. You would learn to prepare parts for inleting and how to finish the inlet. The inleting and assembly then would go so fast that you would have plenty of time in a week class to learn proper shaping, and perhaps even some simple carving (such as the toe and ramrod moldings, which even the plainest colonial period rifles seem to have). And of course, filing, finishing and perhaps modifying the metal parts.

Oh yeah, for those who must know, I have about 120 hours in it. If I hadn't of shortened the buttpiece and nosepiece, it still would have taken me 8 or 10 hours to just assemble the kit. But I'm slow! ;)

Andy












baby name gene
formerly the "barefoot gunsmith of Martin's Station" (now retired!)

www.historicmartinsstation.com

Offline KC

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Re: still another Kibler Colonial rifle
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2019, 03:50:02 PM »
Well done, that’s a great looking rifle. I like the finish on the stock, what did you use for that?
K.C. Clem
Bradenton, FL

Offline rich pierce

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Re: still another Kibler Colonial rifle
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2019, 03:52:35 PM »
Really good info on how to customize that kit. Nice looking gun and great cause too!
Andover, Vermont

Offline Greg Pennell

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Re: still another Kibler Colonial rifle
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2019, 04:44:14 PM »
Andy, that’s a great looking rifle...the Haymaker has always been a favorite of mine.  Be sure and let us know the raffle details when they’re available, I surely want to get some tickets in the hat on that one!

Greg
“Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks” Thomas Jefferson

Offline AndyThomas

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Re: still another Kibler Colonial rifle
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2019, 10:52:23 PM »
Thanks, guys!

KC, the stock was stained with Wahkon Bay Aquafortis, then a really heavy coat of Epifanes spar varnish was put on, and then 3 coats of Wahkon Bay Tru-Coat. It was rubbed out with gray (00) Scotch-Brite between coats. And then topped off with Black Bison Paste Wax.

Greg, if you can talk Kibler into leaving off the trigger and guard inlets, the kit could be turned into a reasonable AH rifle. The lock is close enough. A longer sideplate with the third screw could be made to fit the present inlet. With a little file work the guard would be real close to the AH guard. With the comb shortened, a double set trigger mounted, and the guard moved back....... :) :) :)

Rich, my answer to Greg might give you even more ideas..... ;)

Andy
formerly the "barefoot gunsmith of Martin's Station" (now retired!)

www.historicmartinsstation.com

Offline Daryl

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Re: still another Kibler Colonial rifle
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2019, 11:07:06 PM »
Nice, very rich colour.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline hanshi

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Re: still another Kibler Colonial rifle
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2019, 11:25:21 PM »
That rifle's a heartbreaker.
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: still another Kibler Colonial rifle
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2019, 12:17:36 AM »
Andy,

Nice rifle.  You've done a good job.  It's neat to see how some slight modifications can change the look.  I must disagree however on several points.  The stock might not match the rifles you were attempting to emulate, but I don't agree with you about the stock needing adjustment to be historically correct.  Anyone who has studied original rifles to any extent, will quickly realize the variations present.  Finer combs versus blunter combs,  shorter buttplates or taller ones, straighter toe lines or those more curved,  slim architecture or more robust.

Opinions are great to share, but statements such as yours pertaining to historical correctness are pretty hard to back up and to be blunt can have an impact on how we do business.  I can only imagine the questions now about where wood needs to come off etc... 

All the best,
Jim

Offline FlintFan

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Re: still another Kibler Colonial rifle
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2019, 04:05:07 AM »
Very well done Andy, I like the modifications you made.  It makes it a bit less "cookie cutter" for lack of a better term.

You put a lot of research into that build, and you nailed it.


Offline AndyThomas

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Re: still another Kibler Colonial rifle
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2019, 04:10:42 AM »
Jim,

I've been told I'm a little too abrupt! Sorry.

First, let me say what a tremendous job you did on the Colonial Rifle kit. Everything is super quality, even the shipping box! For someone who normally builds from a blank, it was a joy to be able to quickly assemble the rifle.

The plumpness that I referred to was meant as a complement not a complaint. By making it plump in places where originals vary, you made it easy to adapt the kit stock to various originals. I slimmed it down in places where the rifles I chose for details were slimmer. Someone building perhaps an earlier, more Germanic rifle may have left the comb, wrist and the junction where the upper and lower forestocks meet alone. This plumpness is a good thing not a bad thing.

My concern is about many novice builders, rather than your kit. The junction of the breech of the barrel and stock on many early rifles just flows. (Actually, the whole rifle flows.) Many novice builders leave a big step at the junction. The stock that I had had a small step there. The step was easy to remove and blend in, but I suspect that some novices will just leave the step. Other areas, such as the wood/buttpiece fit are obvious and would likely be blended. Actually, I'm amazed you can get the stock to fit so close everywhere!

Again, my compliments for such a fine kit. You've raised the bar very high, in the kit world, without raising the price.

Andy
formerly the "barefoot gunsmith of Martin's Station" (now retired!)

www.historicmartinsstation.com

Offline kentuckyrifleman

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Re: still another Kibler Colonial rifle
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2019, 11:43:49 PM »
That is one impressive rifle, and further leans me toward this kit as my first foray into longrifle building.

Thanks for sharing!

rfd

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Re: still another Kibler Colonial rifle
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2019, 03:19:43 PM »
andy, that's a wonderful rifle built from an amazing kit and the workmanship of the builder(s) is real craftsmanship.  but truly, the kit itself is the star here, not the "modifications".  this PC and EC stuff gets to be a bit too much for at least some of us and all that nit pickin' just is not necessary about an era of gunmaking that was fraught with subjectivity even in its day, and it can almost smack of unwanted elitism.  the "ymmv" is apropos here. 

Offline AndyThomas

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Re: still another Kibler Colonial rifle
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2019, 04:30:20 PM »
Thanks, guys!

rfd, many just want a quality gun at a low price, which is hard to find these days. And, many want a "kit" that's not so hard to assemble. This one fits both quite handily.

Kentuckyrifleman, one of the guys up at Martin's Station called me yesterday. After handling the rifle he's excited about getting a kit himself. Go for it!

Andy
formerly the "barefoot gunsmith of Martin's Station" (now retired!)

www.historicmartinsstation.com

Offline FlintFan

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Re: still another Kibler Colonial rifle
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2019, 04:34:22 PM »
  but truly, the kit itself is the star here, not the "modifications".

Boy, that is a back handed compliment if I ever heard one.  No, the star is the gun builder, the parts are nothing more than the canvas.  To be very blunt, there have a few builders that have posted their completed Kibler kit, or for that matter any other supplier's kit over the years, and the completed gun is barely worth what they paid for the kit.  In most cases there is nothing wrong with that, it is a just a step in the lifetime process of learning the craft.

A well designed and produced kit can help, but the quality of the final product is solely up to the builder.  In this particular build Andy has taken that step above and beyond and made it his own.  If it was easy everyone could make a Kibler kit (or anyone else's) look this good.  They can't.


rfd

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Re: still another Kibler Colonial rifle
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2019, 06:17:08 PM »
  but truly, the kit itself is the star here, not the "modifications".

Boy, that is a back handed compliment if I ever heard one.  No, the star is the gun builder, the parts are nothing more than the canvas.  To be very blunt, there have a few builders that have posted their completed Kibler kit, or for that matter any other supplier's kit over the years, and the completed gun is barely worth what they paid for the kit.  In most cases there is nothing wrong with that, it is a just a step in the lifetime process of learning the craft.

A well designed and produced kit can help, but the quality of the final product is solely up to the builder.  In this particular build Andy has taken that step above and beyond and made it his own.  If it was easy everyone could make a Kibler kit (or anyone else's) look this good.  They can't.

you misconstrued and took what i posted totally out of context.  i gave good props to the builder(s) and the modifications done to the kibler kit.  are mods a requirement?  i think not.  that you think so AND that in doing so makes for a better rifle is your personal opinion.  this is all very subjective stuff.

Offline Frank

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Re: still another Kibler Colonial rifle
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2019, 06:31:24 PM »
  but truly, the kit itself is the star here, not the "modifications".

Boy, that is a back handed compliment if I ever heard one.  No, the star is the gun builder, the parts are nothing more than the canvas.  To be very blunt, there have a few builders that have posted their completed Kibler kit, or for that matter any other supplier's kit over the years, and the completed gun is barely worth what they paid for the kit.  In most cases there is nothing wrong with that, it is a just a step in the lifetime process of learning the craft.

A well designed and produced kit can help, but the quality of the final product is solely up to the builder.  In this particular build Andy has taken that step above and beyond and made it his own.  If it was easy everyone could make a Kibler kit (or anyone else's) look this good.  They can't.

Have this same builder make a rifle from scratch and compare it to Jim Kibler's kit and then we will see who is the real star here.

I have built rifles from a blank to precarve kits since the mid 70s, and finally Jim Kibler's kit. Trust me, Jim's kits are much more than a blank canvas.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2019, 06:36:50 PM by Frank »

Offline FlintFan

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Re: still another Kibler Colonial rifle
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2019, 06:46:35 PM »
]

you misconstrued and took what i posted totally out of context.  i gave good props to the builder(s) and the modifications done to the kibler kit.  are mods a requirement?  i think not.  that you think so AND that in doing so makes for a better rifle is your personal opinion.  this is all very subjective stuff.

Now you are the one misconstrued and taking me out of context.  No where did I say modifications were necessary as a generality on these kits. In this particular case, the builder was trying to replicate details from specific rifles.  So yes, to get to where he wanted to go modifications where necessary in this case, and by making those modifications he succeeded in his goal.  So again yes, I would say those modification made a better rifle given the goal he was trying to achieve .  There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.  And all credit for that goes to the gun builder.

There is nothing sacred about Jim Kibler's or anyone else's kits that should prevent anyone in modifying them in whatever means they choose to achieve what they want.  No one is saying they need to be modified right out of the box to build a fine rifle. I wish I could say that about other gun kits I have built in my lifetime, however that does not apply here.

My only conflict is if I want to try one of his Southern Mountain rifles, or the Colonial rifle first. 

Offline FlintFan

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Re: still another Kibler Colonial rifle
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2019, 06:49:13 PM »


Have this same builder make a rifle from scratch and compare it to Jim Kibler's kit and then we will see who is the real star here.



If you would look at what the builders former profession was in his tag line, you could have answered that yourself.   I'll put my money on the builder.

Offline Telgan

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Re: still another Kibler Colonial rifle
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2019, 08:11:34 PM »
Is anyone here selling popcorn yet ?

silly goose

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Re: still another Kibler Colonial rifle
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2019, 08:35:43 PM »
That is one of the finest rifles I've seen, period. Very well done.

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: still another Kibler Colonial rifle
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2019, 08:53:09 PM »
No worries at all.  Andy has done a fine job and I know he meant no harm with his initial post.  He's a good guy and gunmaker. 

As I mentioned, it's neat to see how adjustments can change the look.  I have one nearly done that was carved, but no re-shaping was done on the stock.  It might be nice to show for comparison.  It's a little  different than my typical work in that it's been pretty heavily aged.  I must say that I'm really liking it so far.

Anyways, enough for now.  Back to work.

All the best,
Jim

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Re: still another Kibler Colonial rifle
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2019, 08:59:02 PM »
That is one of the finest rifles I've seen, period. Very well done.

I will second that!

I think both Mr. Kibler and Mr. Thomas are to be commended for their respective contributions to a beautiful rifle!

Offline kentuckyrifleman

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Re: still another Kibler Colonial rifle
« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2019, 12:22:01 AM »
That is one of the finest rifles I've seen, period. Very well done.

Agreed.

Andy, what grade of wood did you get?

rfd

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Re: still another Kibler Colonial rifle
« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2019, 03:26:19 AM »
Is anyone here selling popcorn yet ?

would if i could.   :o  ;D

the builder(s), andy (and whomever - i keep seeing him use the plural "we"? ), did a fabuluous job on his-their take on a wonderful jim kibler kit.  if you believe that mods are required to any kit, more power to ya, go for it, that's your business.

the point is that jim's kits are a boon to both rank novice and season gunmaker - do with them as you wish.  i believe his kits are the best available anywhere, along with great customer service from both jim and katherine.  it's jim's kits that allows a wide range of experience, from beginner to expert, to build their interpretation, for them - not for me or you.  get it?  i do!  and i have a kibler colonial kit on the build.

silly goose

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Re: still another Kibler Colonial rifle
« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2019, 10:40:54 AM »
Jim's kits are indeed top notch, it is the rare builder who can expound further on what Jim offers. This builder has clearly paid his dues.

« Last Edit: January 23, 2019, 10:45:19 AM by silly goose »