Advice on carding while browning "Success"

[smart dog]

Hi Folks,
I've browned and blued lots of barrels and I have a browning method I developed while in SE Alaska that is very rust and wear resistant and looks pretty nice but it is mat and slightly textured.  On the late flint English rifle I am finishing I want a smooth reddish brown finish. I have to up my game.  I am using TOW Tried and True browning solution and carding vigorously with 0000 steel wool.  I polished the barrel bright with up to 1000 grit paper dipped in water so the base is very smooth. It seems to be going OK but I would like to hear from others about their carding routines.  I am carding vigorously, almost back to clear metal.  The brown is darkening slowly but I wonder if there is a better and more efficient way.  I want a smooth reddish brown finish.  In addition, how would you seal the brown to create a slight polish.  I would really appreciate input from those who have put fine English-like browns on barrels.

dave

[Mike Brooks]

I think you polished it too fine.

[David Rase]

I card using a 6" wire wheel on a slow (1725 RPM) speed motor.  I brown in a sweat box.  I agree with Mike that 1000 is too smooth and does not give the solution a rough enough surface to get a "bite" on.  Normally when I card the first time or two I get very little color in the metal.  The carding process removes the surface rust and leaves very little "stain" on the metal.  I continue the browning/carding process until my wire wheel removes all the surface rust and the barrel color is a consistent color.  I like a smooth brown surface when I am done.  Colorshould be in the metal vs. on the metal.  Once I cannot remove the color I apply the browning solution and card one more time.
I like Wahkon Bay browning solution over Tracks Tried and True.  I have used Wahkon Bay for years and liked the results.  I tried a bottle of Tried and True and did not get good results.  I have some Laurel Mountain I want to try but as of the past few years have been using a home brew that was cooked up in Montana by a friend of mine.
You got me on the sealing part.  I would try a lacquer finish similar to what the case color hardening guys use.
David   

[smylee grouch]

Hi Dave, when you say card with 0000 steel wool, is the steel wool cleaned of any oil in the fibers or do you/can you buy it already clean?

[sydney]

Hi Dave-I do that type of finish on English   S/S barrels
             I polish to 800 and polish all lengthwise  strokes
             I dilute the  LMF 2 parts water to 1 part LMF
             The barrels go in the damp box for 1  hour and then
               card with a soft wire wheel -I card until there is no trace
               of any rust just a faint color at first
              I repeat until I get the finish I want--20 plus cycles ??
              If I am rust bluing I boil at the end of every day
               You can get a very fine finish  but it does take time
                 Hope that helps
              Sydney
               

[smart dog]

Hi Sydney,
You are browning as I imagine the originals were.  Based on what I've seen, 800-1000 grit is not too much at all to get the smoothness seen on those guns.  I'll be doing that as well on the steel hardware to get that highly polished bluing (I'll boil the hardware in water). What is your wire wheel, steel or brass?

dave

[Scota4570]

I card with degreased steel wool.

 For that fine a polish I have had better luck with quick browns that contain mecuric chloride.  However,  I no longer use mecuric chloride and would not recommend it because it is a powerful neurotic.  Perhaps one of the quick browns from Brownells will work well in the cold dry climate up there? 

[smart dog]

Hi Scota4570,
Thanks but no quick browns need apply here or for this purpose.

dave

[sydney]

Hi Dave--the wheel I use is from Brownell s
             .0025  stainless wire
             The motor I use is 1725 rpm but I slow it down to about  1100 rpm
             I mark my wheel with an arrow and always turn in the same direction
               If you reverse it will soon pull out the wires
                 Sydney

[A.Merrill]

    I had a hurt arm and needed to draw file a pistol barrel. A friend took the barrel to his mold polishing shop. He brought it back the next day and it looked like chrome and it would not take any brown at all. Sanded back and it browned up just fine.    Al

[J. Talbert]

I've used Homer Dangler's ( now Jim Klein's I guess), browning soln since the start, and have now used a wire wheel for quite a while.  Have never needed a wet box, even in an air conditioned basement.
Can get either a dark textured brown, or a deep, smooth, lusterous brown, by varying the polish and the interval between coats.
It's practically fool proof.  I don't know how it could work much easier.

Jeff

[Curtis]

Dave, like several have mentioned here already I now use a fine wire wheel from Brownells for carding.  Since I started using one I have been able to achieve a much smoother brown than other carding methods.

Curtis

[smart dog]

Hi,
Thanks everyone for your input.  I am now using a wire wheel and it is working very well.  The high polish on the metal does not seem to be retarding the browning at all and I believe the result will be close to originals I've viewed.  The wire wheel is also much easier to use around the barrel rib and soldered ramrod pipes.  Interestingly, the low humidity owing to the extreme cold temps of the last few days and of course the dry heat in my shop appears to have had little effect on the rusting process.  Within an hour of applying solution the barrel is evenly rusted.  So far so goo.

dave

[smart dog]

Hi,
Well so far under the ambient conditions of heat and humidity, Sydney is da man!  The reddish brown seems to be very secure in the metal that I suspect I can polish it with a coarse canvas cloth when the browning is complete. Then I will figure out what to top coat it with.  I'll post photos when the gun is done. Thanks everyone.

dave

PS Mike and Dave, I am not ignoring your comments about the level of polish.  On most barrels and hardware I would not go past 220 or 320 grit for the polish before browning.

[Long John]

Dave,

My chemistry professors in collage would not take issue with your fine surface polish as your starting point.  The browning process as I understand it is the formation of a ferric oxide coating on the steel substrate.  The fineness of your polish is NOTHING compared to the fineness of the crystal matrix of the steel - it is measured in angstroms. 

The glossiest browns I have gotten were with very short rusting periods followed with carding with the finest abrasives I could find - rottenstone in Ivory liquid dish detergent on a cloth pad.  You are trying to achieve as close to a mono-crystalline layer of ferric oxide as possible.  That means you want to card after short rusting periods with a real fine abrasive.  Longer rusting periods will give you a more textured, matte finish because the acid is creating pits in the steel.  The longer the rusting period the deeper the pits.  That is the opposite from what I believe you are trying to achieve.

I have use the LMF agent the most although I did one barrel with rock salt and cider vinegar -  very slow and hard to control.

Best Regards,

JMC
John Cholin

[Metalshaper]

for fine surface browning. sand to 600 grt and I rust in short time increments ( no longer than 4 hrs ) and card with clean scraps of old denim jeans.
put on gloves and give it a buffing to knock the loose stuff off, but not trying to re-polish the barrel.. re-apply with browning solution
and repeat. 

just my way??

Respect Always
Metalshaper/Jonathan

[smallpatch]

Dave,
As metalshaper says.... shorter times = smoother, finer grain finish.
LMF is what I generally use.  You can go from coarse grained , kind of leather finish chocolate Brown, to a super shiny smooth purple Brown, all depending on the time between coats of browning and carding.
I also use the drixell scratch wheel from Brownells.

[Acer Saccharum]

I don't know how well you can judge the finish quality from a photo, but this is a rust blue that's been boiled. I used Wahkon Bay rust blue. Carded with a STAINLESS STEEL wire brush from Brownell's on Jerry H's advice. Wires are .003", a very soft brush that did not scour or pit the metal surface.

[Joe S]

Dave - You might take a look at Firearm Blueing and Browning by R.H. Angier. He gives a lot of different recipes for bluing and browning. Many of these recipes contain copper, either as copper sulphate or copper chloride. I suspect that the rich red brown tones in English barrels comes from copper.

I have not done any experiments yet with these formulas, but I plan to test several next summer. In general, I find that  if I want to replicate old guns, I do better if I use the same materials and tools they used.

Joe

PS: I'd stay away from any recipe that contains antimony, unless you have a fume hood.

[Joe S]

Dave: Here's the formula for the solution used for the Brown Bess musket (taken from General Regulations and Orders for the Army, 1811):

•   Nitric acid - 1/2 ounce
•   Sweet spirits of wine (ethyl nitrite) - 1/2 ounce
•   Spirits of wine (ethyl alcohol) - 1 ounce
•   Blue vitriol (copper sulphate) - 2 ounces
•   Tincture of Steel (iron chloride in alcohol) - 1 ounce

[jerrywh]

 Smart Dog.
    When  doing English pistols and rifles including Damascus barrels. Polish to as high as 2000 grit wet and dry. Many will tell you it can't be done but I do it when ever I want. You can use a sweat box but I just put them under or in a wet cardboard box and cover with damp news paper for about 1 to 1 1/2 Hours best temp is 80° F. After that card them even if they don't look rusty.  Don't use steel wool. Brownel has a 6" wire brush with wire .003" or less. Get that and run it at about 1200rpm in the drill press.  If you run it too fast the barrel will turn gray or black from the heat generated. You will need an arbor for the brush.  Usually about 5 applications will work but might need more. Nobody told me it couldn't be done so I did ir before I found out. Actually Steve Nelson a member of the American custom gunmakers guild taught me how. don't rust too much. I use LMF solution. Never let moisture build up on the barrel. 

[smart dog]

Hi,
Thank you guys.  Jerry, Long John, Tom, Jose, and Curtis, your advice is paramount.  I am taking advantage of it and the results are going well but slowly, as I anticipated.  Thank you all very much.

dave

[smart dog]

Hi Guys,
Well my brown is nice and even and smooth but the wrong color.  It came out the same ugly plumb-brown color you get from the instant browns.  I stripped it all off and will try again with another strategy. I want a reddish brown, a really reddish brown.  After reading some old English texts it seems that if I scald (not boil) the barrel before carding the rust, I may get that redder color. The photo below shows the color I want.

dave

[Pennsylvania Dutchman]

Will the barrel alloy affect the finish color you are trying to achieve?
Mark

[Long John]

Dave,

The red/orange brown is ferric oxide, Fe₂)₃.  When ferric oxide is allowed to accumulate an additional oxygen it converts to ferrosoferric oxide, Fe₃O₄ which usually exists as a nonahydrate, -9(H₂O),  The brown color of a browned barrel is due to a mixture of ferric oxide and ferrosferric oxide - red and black make brown.  That's why boiling a browned barrel turns it black - the red ferric oxide is bejng converted to ferrosoferric oxide nonahydrate due to the boiling process.

I don't "know" what to do.  But I would be trying to convert as much ferrosoferric oxide back to ferric oxide as I can.  The first thing I would try is heat - to burn off the hydrates.  Iron oxide based artist's pigments umber and sienna are burned to produce burnt umber and burnt sienna, both redder than the unburned precursor.  So I would heat them in an oxygen-deprived environment.   (A good oxygen scavenger is aluminum.  Dross from the aluminum recycling industry is sold to steel makers to scavenge oxide from the steel melt.)  I don't know how hot but I would guess above boiling but not hot enough to mess with the case colors.  If you have a piece of steel you might experiment with a surrogate rather than the actual barrels.

Let me do some research.

Best Regards,

JMC
John Cholin