Author Topic: What's the minimum safe breach plug ?  (Read 10607 times)

Offline recurve

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What's the minimum safe breach plug ?
« on: February 10, 2019, 07:08:11 AM »
How deep into the barrel should a breach plug be to be considered safe. What depth  of the threads 3/8 ,1/2 etc....    How many threads are considered safe for a .50 7/8 barrel (Gmtn) hook breach  for 70 grns -100 of powder .490-495 ball?
« Last Edit: February 10, 2019, 07:27:26 AM by rich pierce »

Offline EC121

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Re: What's the minimum safe breach plug ?
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2019, 04:28:37 PM »
If you will do a Google search for "maximum thread strength" , you will find a lot of information.
Brice Stultz

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: What's the minimum safe breach plug ?
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2019, 05:18:38 PM »
most all the barrels I use are fitted with 1/2" plugs. Colerain has something closer to 5/8". The old timers often went with a course threaded 3/8" long plug. You roll the dice and plays your game.
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Offline jerrywh

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Re: What's the minimum safe breach plug ?
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2019, 07:27:47 PM »
 I have several friends that are engineers. They told me that 3 full threads is the maximum strength.  That is full threads.  Remember it takes many more times the pressure to blow the plug than it does to blow the barrel.
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

ron w

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Re: What's the minimum safe breach plug ?
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2019, 08:27:26 PM »
I  learned many years ago in my millwright training, that thread engagement length the same as the thread diameter is required for maximum strength.....i.e....5/8 dia. threads should engage at least 5/8 in length to have full strength.  I will continue to comply with that rule with any threaded applications I do.
      I see no reason to reduce any threaded engagement below minimum full strength engagement any where reliance on the threads' strength becomes a safety issue.

    just sayin'

Offline Daryl

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Re: What's the minimum safe breach plug ?
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2019, 11:04:11 PM »
Minimum safe breach? - ???? is this known? - size of threads vs. barrel diameter, # of threads engaging, depth of engagement, barrel and/or breech material?

Now, I am not suggesting this is 'safe', however the plug didn't blow.

As you can see in the text, the three threads engaging the barrel's threads, had .0025" to .0225" engagement. Now the remaining thread is also mildly engaging
except for where the vent met the plug.  3 drams of 3F was the only charge used in this made in India 'piece'. The breech was 1.0", bore .750".
 


I returned this musket and the outfit in Ontario said they had a Gunsmith proof it and it was fine, using 200gr. of "powder" and 2 balls. Go figure.
BTW- the hole was only in the middle at the muzzle and at the breech. I cut 4" off the muzzle and the bore was one-sided with .020" wall on one side,  .050" on the other.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2019, 11:10:42 PM by Daryl »
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Offline Blacksmoke

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Re: What's the minimum safe breach plug ?
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2019, 01:07:48 AM »
Recurve:  When it comes to barrel wall thickness and breech plug depth there is no excuse to cut corners!  I have always used the formula of : breech plug dia. = the depth of thread into the barrel and add at least 1/8" to the depth.  So if the plug is 3/4X16 then the depth into the barrel is at least 3/4" and NO less!  It doesn't matter what an "old timer" did he isn't around any more to explain himself!  If you have ever witnessed a breech failure you will never use only the minimum threads or wall thickness again! I have witnessed several breech failures and but for the Grace of God I and no one else was seriously hurt.  .50 X 7/8" AF at the breech is already too thin in terms wall thickness according to my thinking.  If I were you I would use my method of breeching for your project. ( See attached).   Hugh Toenjes


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Offline Darkhorse

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Re: What's the minimum safe breach plug ?
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2019, 01:20:21 AM »
I have several friends that are engineers. They told me that 3 full threads is the maximum strength.  That is full threads.  Remember it takes many more times the pressure to blow the plug than it does to blow the barrel.

This is true. I worked structural components for the Air Force 41 years and while building fixtures to machine  parts with limited room this subject came up quite often. Engineering always had the same answer; 3 full threads gives you the maximum strength.
But I think other things like thread fit, 3A or 2A or even looser will reduce thread engagement to the point where it becomes weaker. Personally I've never tested the theory as I always managed to get more than 3 threads deep.
I don't think 3 threads deep with sloppy thread fit is the place for me to shoulder and fire a rifle and just hope.
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Offline jerrywh

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Re: What's the minimum safe breach plug ?
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2019, 01:34:50 AM »
 I agree with Hugh in at least one aspect.  It doesn't matter what the old timers did. Who knows what their failure rate was, Bet it was way more than ours today. I often breech barrels the same way Hugh does. It gives great strength and allows the pan to be set back.  I am now working on a double flint French pistol. the breech plugs are 1" long and 20 tpi. Gold liners will go through the hollowed out plugs. The gun will probably never be fired but if so it will not fail. 28ga. A plug either has to strip all the theads or turn sideways to come out. Most modern barrels are 8 times more likely to fail than the plug is. Because the pressure on the barrel is ABOUT 8 times the pressure on the plug. most of the fear over breech plugs is caused by the fact that your face is behind it. 
  Around here we have a guy called bad hand.  He loaded one full load on top of another and fire his gun because he was too lazy to pull the load. It turned the barrel to shrapnel but the plug was intact. His face is ok his hand is not. that is reallty.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 01:39:10 AM by jerrywh »
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ron w

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Re: What's the minimum safe breach plug ?
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2019, 04:58:12 PM »
I don't understand why someone would even go less than the full diameter of thread engagement length.  who cares about period correct or accurate copy of a particular gun when the issue is your safety. a plug engaged by three threads or a full diameter isn't going to make a gun look ugly or great. i'd rather have a gun that I know is safe ( or at least know I did everything I could to be safe) than a gun that copies what someone thought was safe 200 years ago.

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: What's the minimum safe breach plug ?
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2019, 05:28:35 PM »
Well, I guess just for safeties sake I'll start going with 12" of thread.
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Offline Long John

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Re: What's the minimum safe breach plug ?
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2019, 05:35:20 PM »
Friends,

I know I am going to bore some of you with some actual engineering but I can't help myself.

The "3 full threads" rule comes from the SAE standard for threaded components.  SAE standard nuts are thick enough to give you 3 full class A threads because those three full threads are as strong as the a rod having a diameter equal to the minor diameter for the male threaded component.  Making the nut thicker achieves nothing because the limiting factor is the tensile strength of the male component.  This is NOT the threading system in use with a breach plug.  With a breech plug the threads should be as strong as the barrel wall.  So we take the cross-sectional area of the barrel immediately in front of the breech face and compare it to the thread area (thread minor diameter multiplied by pi, multiplied by thread length).  If the thread area exceeds the barrel cross-sectional area then the shear force necessary to cause failure of the breech plug threads is greater than the tensile force necessary to cause the barrel wall to fail; the breech threads are stronger than the barrel wall.  Of course, this ASSUMES that the barrel and the plug are mad of the same quality steel.

For my double gun I used a breech very much like the one that Hugh illustrated.  Six full threads equaled the barrel wall cross-sectional area.

Best Regards,

JMC
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Offline sqrldog

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Re: What's the minimum safe breach plug ?
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2019, 05:48:25 PM »
I suppose back in the good old days they just blew their customers up at will and no one cared? How many of the thousands of barrels breeched at least 1/2 inch deep by the barrel maker or a competent machinist/gunsmith have failed? I think if it was a problem then we all would have breech plugs popping out like champagne corks. It just isn't a problem in my opinion.

Offline bama

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Re: What's the minimum safe breach plug ?
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2019, 07:05:48 PM »
I have never seen evidence of a failed breech plug but I have personally seen a failed barrel at the face of a Breech plug. I don’t know the science or engineering of thread strength but I believe in it. I worked in nuclear power plants for several years, the 3 thread minimum for maximum strength is a rule used in threading applications for that industry. I would be way more concerned about barrel wall thickness at the end of threads than that of a failure of the breech thread engagement. I believe that is why many of the early barrels are heavy at the breech and taper away from the breech. The long and slender barrels that are being made today scare me much more than thread engagement.
Jim Parker

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ron w

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Re: What's the minimum safe breach plug ?
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2019, 09:14:20 PM »
the OP's question was about the strength of thread engagement distance, not barrel wall thickness. if the barrel wall is not thick enough to maintain strength,...... it doesn't matter how many threads are engaged.

oldarcher

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Re: What's the minimum safe breach plug ?
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2019, 09:25:36 PM »
I  learned many years ago in my millwright training, that thread engagement length the same as the thread diameter is required for maximum strength.....i.e....5/8 dia. threads should engage at least 5/8 in length to have full strength.  I will continue to comply with that rule with any threaded applications I do.
      I see no reason to reduce any threaded engagement below minimum full strength engagement any where reliance on the threads' strength becomes a safety issue.

    just sayin'
This is a really neat subject. I agree and always use the above statement, when you are putting a pipe bomb next to your face, you just can't be too careful. Safe is always better than sorry.
There is always more to the story....The % of thread engagement is a factor as is the quality and temper of the steel. The other important point is the shape of the plug, if it is  drilled or cast with a channel to the nipple, look out, as the plug will only be as strong as the area  that is not channeled (Drilled or cast) under the threads. I had one blow the back out of the plug and after further examination discovered that there was only 1/8" of thread contact that was not undercut. More is better.

ron w

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Re: What's the minimum safe breach plug ?
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2019, 09:40:57 PM »
Well, I guess just for safeties sake I'll start going with 12" of thread.

     don't you think that would look kind of silly Mike ?.....I know your post sure looks silly.

Offline David Rase

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Re: What's the minimum safe breach plug ?
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2019, 09:46:44 PM »
I have several friends that are engineers. They told me that 3 full threads is the maximum strength.  That is full threads.  Remember it takes many more times the pressure to blow the plug than it does to blow the barrel.
Jerry,
Engineers up here in Washington use the formula that max thread strength is reached once the length of engagement equals diameter.
David 

Offline deepcreekdale

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Re: What's the minimum safe breach plug ?
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2019, 10:02:11 PM »
This is an interesting thread with lots of room for thought. I am not an engineer and claim no expertise. But, I do think there are many variables. I used to race motorcycles, and when building high out put engines, the torque placed on threads was CRITICAL. Some nuts, under a great deal of stress, required only a few foot pounds of torque to achieve maximum strength, and they usually only had 3-4 threads engaged. Too much torque gave guaranteed failure. That is for you engineer types to figure, I just followed the specs religiously.  Personally, I would prefer shorter plug, say 1/2 inch, properly torqued, to one even longer that has been way over torqued. You lose much of the strength of the threads if you are tightening them up to the point you need a 24 inch breaker bar to tighten them. It might be helpful if someone had some evidence based data on this for breechplugs.
 Another variable, which does not address the OP's question, is, in my opinion, we use a lot more powder than they did in the old days. People today routinely shoot 100gr+ loads in 50 calibers, I don't think those were normal loads back in the day.
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: What's the minimum safe breach plug ?
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2019, 05:10:59 AM »
This is an interesting thread with lots of room for thought. I am not an engineer and claim no expertise. But, I do think there are many variables. I used to race motorcycles, and when building high out put engines, the torque placed on threads was CRITICAL. Some nuts, under a great deal of stress, required only a few foot pounds of torque to achieve maximum strength, and they usually only had 3-4 threads engaged. Too much torque gave guaranteed failure. That is for you engineer types to figure, I just followed the specs religiously.  Personally, I would prefer shorter plug, say 1/2 inch, properly torqued, to one even longer that has been way over torqued. You lose much of the strength of the threads if you are tightening them up to the point you need a 24 inch breaker bar to tighten them. It might be helpful if someone had some evidence based data on this for breechplugs.
 Another variable, which does not address the OP's question, is, in my opinion, we use a lot more powder than they did in the old days. People today routinely shoot 100gr+ loads in 50 calibers, I don't think those were normal loads back in the day.

Col Hanger talks of 1/2 ball weight of powder during the Revolution, 90 grains from a 50 cal. So heavy charges were not unknown.
When Gen Fraser was shot at second Saratoga at 300 yards I doubt the shooter was using 50 grains of powder.
 I generally use the cupped breech with the vent in the breech. This was done by the British when patent breech was not used.
The cupped breech will also give a velocity increase over a flat breech. Or so I have been told, never tested it. would have to breech a barrel flat then shoot it with a cupped breech to prove this and  its not worth the trouble to me.
I tend to use the 1/2 to 5/8" plug. Though I know that in a 54 caliber 4-5 threads with  3/4 plug will stand any pressure likely the be generated in a ML even with a very stiff proof. 600+ gr of lead and 200 gr of strong powder. But we must also assure the plug is seated properly against a shoulder.
This is a 58 cal with a cup. Note the grooves show on the breech face.
Dan



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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: What's the minimum safe breach plug ?
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2019, 10:42:41 AM »
Well, I guess just for safeties sake I'll start going with 12" of thread.

     don't you think that would look kind of silly Mike ?.....I know your post sure looks silly.
It was meant to be silly. It's called sarcasm. You guys can sure find a lot of ridiculous  stuff to worry about. ::) If a 1/2" long breech plug was dangerous 90% of everybody on this forum would be dead by now. ::) Now lets move on and speculate again for eight pages how dangerous 12L14 is...that's always fun.
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Offline recurve

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Re: What's the minimum safe breach plug ?
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2019, 05:45:22 PM »
 Here is the breech plug in my rifle green mtn barrel  36 inch length (internal 351/2) but the touch hole is 1/4 x28 and is located just over 3/8 inch from the breech end of barrel.   the plug is 1/2 and is filed to  3/8 on the touch hole side .  The rifle has a date 1-91

  1 is this safe ?
  2 the builder has marked max load 100 3fff ?
  3  can/should this be replace(and at what cost)?



« Last Edit: February 12, 2019, 06:53:56 PM by recurve »

Offline recurve

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Re: What's the minimum safe breach plug ?
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2019, 05:47:12 PM »





Offline AsMs

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Re: What's the minimum safe breach plug ?
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2019, 06:35:14 PM »
Well, I guess just for safeties sake I'll start going with 12" of thread.

Mike,

That means your long barreled guns will now have 10ft barrels😂!

AsMs

Offline Marcruger

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Re: What's the minimum safe breach plug ?
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2019, 07:21:28 PM »
"Well, I guess just for safeties sake I'll start going with 12" of thread."

If you keep your lock and touch-hole in alignment with each other, and you have a 12" plug, I think you can attach your tang to you buttplate return.   :-)   Hah, hah!  Enjoyed the dry humor Mike. 


God Bless,   Marc