Author Topic: What's the minimum safe breach plug ?  (Read 10604 times)

Offline Scota4570

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2398
Re: What's the minimum safe breach plug ?
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2019, 08:34:58 PM »
Here is the breech plug in my rifle green mtn barrel  36 inch length (internal 351/2) but the touch hole is 1/4 x28 and is located just over 3/8 inch from the breech end of barrel.   the plug is 1/2 and is filed to  3/8 on the touch hole side .  The rifle has a date 1-91

  1 is this safe ?
  2 the builder has marked max load 100 3fff ?
  3  can/should this be replace(and at what cost)?


Others think notching the plug face is OK.  I disagree and would never do it.  It defeats the compression seal at nose of the plug.  This one also has too few threads.  You have no idea how well the tapping and threading was done.  There is a difference in strength between well fitted tight threads and loosie goosie ones done freehand with a hardware store tap and die. 

When I build a rifle safety is paramount.   I would not trust that plug in a rifle owned.  I would  never sell such a rifle. I am a worrier and obsessive about doing good work.  Hurting somebody because of shoddy work is a chance I will not take.

As much as I hate long plug threads with a chamber that would fix this.  Ignore the existing threads strength wise.  Run the threads 3/4"+ up past the  liner.  Be sure there is 5/8" of clean threads.  Make a new long plug.  Install the new liner like Hugh CVA or Pedersoli, in the side of the plug threads.  Drill a 1/4" hole down the middle of the plug to connect to the liner. 




Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15846
Re: What's the minimum safe breach plug ?
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2019, 10:09:44 PM »
Here is the breech plug in my rifle green mtn barrel  36 inch length (internal 351/2) but the touch hole is 1/4 x28 and is located just over 3/8 inch from the breech end of barrel.   the plug is 1/2 and is filed to  3/8 on the touch hole side .  The rifle has a date 1-91

  1 is this safe ?
  2 the builder has marked max load 100 3fff ?
  3  can/should this be replace(and at what cost)?




I don't like it and would not have it - period.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline recurve

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 622
Re: What's the minimum safe breach plug ?
« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2019, 12:09:03 AM »
I'm looking for a replacement /suggestion. Trying to improve/repair a 1991 build.

Offline Scota4570

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2398
Re: What's the minimum safe breach plug ?
« Reply #28 on: February 13, 2019, 01:00:35 AM »
I'm looking for a replacement /suggestion. Trying to improve/repair a 1991 build.

As much as I hate long plug threads with a chamber that would fix this.  Ignore the existing threads strength wise.  Run the threads 3/4"+ up past the  liner.  Be sure there is 5/8" of clean threads.  Make a new long plug.  Install the new liner like Hugh CVA or Pedersoli, in the side of the plug threads.  Drill a 1/4" hole down the middle of the plug to connect to the liner. 

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13415
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: What's the minimum safe breach plug ?
« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2019, 01:27:46 AM »
I'm looking for a replacement /suggestion. Trying to improve/repair a 1991 build.

 I know of people who set up their vent liners like this all the time. They notch the face of the plug, install a vent liner and go on with life. Not the way I would do it, but there you go.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Scota4570

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2398
Re: What's the minimum safe breach plug ?
« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2019, 01:50:42 AM »
The reason I would never do this is not because is can not work.  But because it is perceived as poor quality work.  If an accident were to happen the maker will be blamed.  People sue.   It does not matter if the shooter was at fault.  IF the crappy plug is found out,  then then the maker looses the lawsuit. 

Offline Dennis Glazener

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19487
    • GillespieRifles
Re: What's the minimum safe breach plug ?
« Reply #31 on: February 13, 2019, 01:50:59 AM »
My hunting rifle is from a Dunlap early Lancaster kit. Chambers Siler lock. When I first put it together I had to notch the 5/8" breechplug (tri-corner file) to clear the drilled touch hole (C profile 54 cal) it was hit or miss fire no matter how clean I kept breech face/touch hole. I installed a weight lighting liner and it's probably the most reliable firing rifle I ever owned.
Dennis
"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13415
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: What's the minimum safe breach plug ?
« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2019, 02:11:10 AM »
The reason I would never do this is not because is can not work.  But because it is perceived as poor quality work.  If an accident were to happen the maker will be blamed.  People sue.   It does not matter if the shooter was at fault.  IF the crappy plug is found out,  then then the maker looses the lawsuit.
I agree. But, I see this sort of thing on old guns all the time, as I'm sure you have too. I'm not saying it's right, but it was/is done commonly.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Blacksmoke

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 874
  • "Old age and treachery beats youth and skill"
Re: What's the minimum safe breach plug ?
« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2019, 02:46:50 AM »
Recurve:  I have personally seen a breech fail with your exact configuration of liner and breech threads!   The vent did not have enough threads engaged in the threaded portion of the barrel. It blew the lock clean off of the rifle and it bounced up against the building he was standing next to - 25yds. away! I repaired the breech by configuring a new and longer breech plug - 1" and threaded the barrel deeper to fit the new plug.  Then made a new liner to go through both the barrel wall and the counter bored breech plug!  I would not trust your set up at all as you have drawn it!   Hugh Toenjes - 40 yrs. experience building front stuffers!
H.T.

Offline shifty

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 429
Re: What's the minimum safe breach plug ?
« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2019, 12:06:34 PM »
   For example look at Hoot Als Rifle Shop under tip& tricks , Installing a vent liner.

Offline Longknife

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2095
Re: What's the minimum safe breach plug ?
« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2019, 06:07:01 PM »
Your pic shows the vent liner protruding into the barrel, if this is so then Yes I would have it repaired as  described above....Ed
Ed Hamberg

Offline recurve

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 622
Re: What's the minimum safe breach plug ?
« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2019, 06:36:34 PM »
The vent liner does not protrude into the barrel , I just made it stand out on drawing. took a little file work to get that right. Thanks

Offline Scota4570

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2398
Re: What's the minimum safe breach plug ?
« Reply #37 on: February 13, 2019, 08:12:40 PM »
   For example look at Hoot Als Rifle Shop under tip& tricks , Installing a vent liner.

http://www.hootalrifleshop.org/install_flashliner.htm

A good internet example of how not to do something.  Remember you loose a couple of threads at the bottom of the hole and a couple at the base of the plug.  You need relief a cut because you can not thread perfectly to the end.  At best your 1/2" long 5/8 x 18 TPI plug will give only 6 or 7 full intact threads. 
Then AL cuts a notch? Yikes. 
« Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 08:20:02 PM by Scota4570 »

Offline HelmutKutz

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 54
Re: What's the minimum safe breach plug ?
« Reply #38 on: February 13, 2019, 09:24:31 PM »
Where the idea of three threads comes from is ungraded threaded rod, not graded capscrews and certainly does not apply to pressure vessels. Because of material yielding there is a certain consistency in the distribution of load applied to each thread. Studies of the physics have established that for a typical grade 8 nut with 75% engagement cold rolled threads the percentage of the load taken by consecutive threads are approximately 34%, 23%, 16%,11%,9%, 7% respectively from the clamped side to the runout side. For clamping applications, testing provides no increase in thread shear strength by having full-thread engagement (discounting 70% of lead male and female thread sections) length in excess of the screw diameter. For blind hole clamping standard practice is for tapped hole depth to be 1.5 times the nominal fastener diameter; this to allow for minimum of 1 full diameter with 100% thread engagement. Except in special applications any clamping connection have thread engagement less than 80% nominal diameter is substandard and unacceptable for engineering integrity.

Pressure vessels are completely different from fastener clamping applications and should not be in any manner confused or combined. In USA it falls under ASME B31.1/B31.3 piping code, Europe, India and others have their own codes according to standards for pressure vessels applied to straight and tapered threads but the commonality amongst all codes is that no less than 7 full-threads of engagement are acceptable. On pressure vessel threaded connections engineer must discount 100% of lead thread and standard practice is to gauge connections such that the finished assembly attains minimum of 7.5 full-thread engagement. Minimum applies to all connections whether blind, flange or compression ring, thread engagement minimums and pass-through on flange connections have been established based upon combination of materials testing and historical failure data. Disruption of thread engagement are via notch or secondary penetration reduces load rating by a minimum of 125% of the notch/penetration area.
HK

Offline recurve

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 622
Re: What's the minimum safe breach plug ?
« Reply #39 on: February 13, 2019, 09:52:41 PM »
Al Hoots breech plug "notched"  is what I have  on my 1991 rifle ,looks the same :o and this is  why I started this thread  :-[
« Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 09:56:02 PM by recurve »

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13415
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: What's the minimum safe breach plug ?
« Reply #40 on: February 13, 2019, 11:13:15 PM »
You machinist types give me a headache. :P
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline P.W.Berkuta

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2215
Re: What's the minimum safe breach plug ?
« Reply #41 on: February 14, 2019, 01:55:51 AM »
I recommend you (Recurve) invest in "Machinery's Handbook" - no need to buy a current volume you can get an older edition which will have MANY pages of ALL the info you want to know about mechanical design, manufacturing, drafting, toolmaking, and machinist. I have edition #25 and paid less than $25 for it. In the section on "Fasteners" you will find your answer to your question. It depends on many factors as you will see when you start reading the section but here is a "GENERAL" guide and that is 1.5 X diameter of the male screw with 75% clean formed threads will give you max strength. Go buy the book ;)
"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person who is doing it." - Chinese proverb

ron w

  • Guest
Re: What's the minimum safe breach plug ?
« Reply #42 on: February 14, 2019, 07:01:11 AM »
so it takes 15/16" thread length of a 5/8 dia. plug with 75% thread engagement to provide full strength ?.

Offline Blacksmoke

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 874
  • "Old age and treachery beats youth and skill"
Re: What's the minimum safe breach plug ?
« Reply #43 on: February 14, 2019, 07:49:31 AM »
Ron:  It is not just "full strength" but a measure of "tolerance" that is needed in breech plug threads.  Today's BP is a little more refined and more powerful than several hundred yrs. ago and at "middle age" we have more "newbies", today, who start to shoot muzzle loaders than when you grew up learning the techniques from your father. So there needs to be more safety factors involved.  Just saying,    Hugh Toenjes
H.T.

ron w

  • Guest
Re: What's the minimum safe breach plug ?
« Reply #44 on: February 14, 2019, 10:50:36 AM »
oh I realize that Blacksmoke, the threads are defined by "class" which defines how the threads fit. what I was asking was "what does the 75 % define ?" ….it's class ?,.... or what ?.  if class,....why wasn't the thread classification used instead of a being expressed in some percentage ?. ( I realize that thread "class" defines the percentage of contact ("fit") of engagement between internal and external threads, but using a "percentage" doesn't express what class the threads are.  I assume a plug/barrel  should be 3A and 3B...…(I've never seen it defined as a "percentage" before). that said, if so,...75% doesn't seem to be all that good a fit.
    this brings to mind how "precious" the taps and screw plates were to the builders back then !.

Offline Elnathan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1773
Re: What's the minimum safe breach plug ?
« Reply #45 on: February 14, 2019, 03:10:49 PM »
Seems to me that there are three different things being discussed here: The minimum length of threads necessary to avoid a dangerous gun; the length of threads that reaches maximum safety of the join, without considering other factors; and the length of threads necessary to ensure that the join is at least as strong as the barrel itself.

To the extent it the first question can be answered objectively, the best answer so far comes from HelmutKutz: 7/7.5 full threads of engagement is the standard minimum for pressure vessels.
The second has been answered Paul Berkuta: 1.5 times the diameter of the male screw.
The third was answered by John Cholin: The area of the engaged threads should equal or exceed the area of the cross-section of the barrel immediately in front of the breech plug face.

Now, I have a barrel that needs a new plug, and I have been doing some back-of-the-envelope calculations using it as an example. It is approximately 1.03 at the breech, .45 caliber, with 5/8x18 threads.  At 18 threads per inch,  .42 inches of full threads is necessary to meet Mr. Kutz's minimum. The area of the barrel cross-section is approximately .8496 square inches, so if I use John's formula and hypothesize .5 inches of thread I get approximately .87 square inches of thread, meaning that the threads are as strong as the barrel wall itself at approximately 1/2" of engagement (ignoring the difference between 8620 and 1018 steels, for the moment. Also, is this for tensile strength or shock impact?) I could go with 15/16" of threads, but that would mean counterboring and drilling the touch-hole through the threads, necessitating lengthening the threads yet again to compensate. It also means that the breechplug can't be removed without mucking up the touchhole, which is a safety issue in itself IMHO. And, in the end, it wouldn't add anything to safety of the gun as a whole.

1/2" of threads, unnotched, in both 5/18-18 and 3/4-16, at the very least meet the minimum standards for strength. In the case of the barrel I looked at above, it doesn't appear that adding to that length gives any practical benefit, and it is a pretty stout barrel wall, rather more than the average these days, I suspect. Now, I am aware that 1/2" of breechplug is NOT the same as 1/2" of full threads - the threads of commercial plugs tend to end ~1/8" before the tang, and there is some thread removed around the face of the plug. However, it does look to me like the usual plugs found these days aren't all that far removed from the optimal length, and 1/2" or a bit more of full threads, with no notch on the breechplug, seems like a very achievable goal without resorting to long counterbored plugs or making dramatic alterations to traditional architecture. With big bores and breechplugs larger than 3/4", that could change, of course.

Now, I wonder, what about the thread lengths on touch hole liners....

Edited to add: Double checked my math and the area of the barrel cross section is .878, not .8496, so 1/2" inch threads almost exactly matches it (I've been ignoring significant digits and using 3.14 for pi, so the exact relationship is uncertain, but the two figures are very close. Doesn't change the overall conclusion, though.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2019, 03:20:52 PM by Elnathan »
A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition -  Rudyard Kipling

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13415
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: What's the minimum safe breach plug ?
« Reply #46 on: February 14, 2019, 05:12:43 PM »
Keep in mind on big bores , 10,11,12, you don't reach near the pressure. So , I would assume you're not going to need a plug that is 3/4" to 1" long.
 Getz, Rice, Hoyt, FCI and all the other barrel Mfg's except Colerain seem comfortable with a 1/2" plug in all calibers. I'll go with what the major MFG's feel safe with. Of course they all use 12L14 too so I imagine hardly anybody here uses their barrels anyway.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9694
Re: What's the minimum safe breach plug ?
« Reply #47 on: February 14, 2019, 05:42:57 PM »
I have several friends that are engineers. They told me that 3 full threads is the maximum strength.  That is full threads.  Remember it takes many more times the pressure to blow the plug than it does to blow the barrel.

AND a patched ball moves forward easier than that tightly threaded plug
will move backward.
There have been cases in to not too distant past of cast plugs in production
muzzle loaders blowing because of extreme over tightening by people who
had not the vaguest idea as to what stresses were created by the assembly
process.They blew out and left the threaded part of the plug in the barrel
because a fracture occurred in the last thread because of people who had
no idea what they were making. Horrible injuries and lawsuits followed.
My grandfather who was born in 1873 told me of a cruel trick played on
a mentally challenged man. A group of local knuckleheads got a single
barreled muzzle loading shotgun that was poor quality and filled the barrel
half full of powder and a big load of birdshot and talked the guy into firing
it.According to grandpa,the plug did blow and the man was killed.I am
thinking the whole thing blew up like a pipe bomb.
I was told for years that "You can't blow up a gun with black powder".
DON'T BELIEVE it.

Bob Roller

Offline recurve

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 622
Re: What's the minimum safe breach plug ?
« Reply #48 on: February 14, 2019, 09:42:59 PM »
This is what I have(this is a very close to what is in my rifle)
 

Offline JTR

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4351
Re: What's the minimum safe breach plug ?
« Reply #49 on: February 15, 2019, 03:31:45 AM »
This is what I have(this is a very close to what is in my rifle)


So reading the above 2 pages, it seems that plug would be safe Without the notch,,,, but is Not Safe with the notch?
If that's the case, then the unmolested plug with 7 full threads is only marginally safe to begin with?
Really? If that's the case, these muzzle loaders should be blowing up practically every day! Not to mention the old original ones with nothing more than 3 course threads, with a notch filed in them..... that have somehow managed to exist this long....
John Robbins