Ram Rod Pipe Spacing

[Nhgrants]

On a 36 inch long barreled NW trade gun, with no entry pipe how critical is the centering of the pipe between the entry hole and the pipe at the muzzle end?  I could get perfect center but that would require moving a soft soldered barrel lug which could be done.  All the photos in For Trade and Treaty
show the second pipe pretty much equally spaced between the front pipe and the entry hole.  Not moving the lug results in about a 2 inch difference in spacing which is noticeable.  I don't think that I can cut the entry hole back a full inch.  Would you move the barrel stud? Thanks

[rich pierce]

I’d not move the lug.

[Justin Urbantas]

You could notch the thimble tab so it doesn't interfere with the lug and inlet it slightly forward or back. Or cut the tab right off and epoxy it in.

[Eric Kettenburg]

I end up with pipe and lug interference all the time.  Quite a few antiques with 'not perfect' spacing also.  It's probably more noticeable because you know it's there and you're looking for it.  On a rifle for example, it's usually the middle lug of a 3-lug barrel and middle pipe (3 pipes inc. entry).  I usually just move the middle pipe forward, which tends to look better to my eye then moving it back.  As noted, you can file a bit on both lug and on pipe tab to reduce interference, although there's only so much you can do if you're pinning your pipes with two pins.

[smart dog]

Hi,
As Eric described.  Neither pipes nor lugs have to be evenly spaced as long as the deviation in not too much.  Here is how I handled it on a fowler.

dave

[Stophel]

That's S.O.P. on New England rifles.   




Each rod pipe straddles a barrel tenon.

[Lucky R A]

        The simple way is to use 4 evenly spaced under lugs, and three evenly spaced ram rod pipes and you will not have a problem in the future.    If you insist on using three underlugs do not  space them evenly, put the middle underlug slightly fore or aft of the center ram rod pipe.   

Ron

[Ky-Flinter]

Nhgrants,

I ran into a similar situation, but for a different reason, on a pistol I'm building.  Not a lot of real estate with an 8 inch barrel.  I inletted the RR pipe lug right next to the barrel lug and used a single pin to hold them both in.

-Ron

[David Rase]

What Ron said.  Space your pipes evenly and then adjust your lugs.  A lug not spaced evenly is a lot less noticeable than a pipe. 

On a side note, while at the Lake Cumberland show I was shown an original longrifle that had the pipes spaced using the golden mean proportion.  The rifle had 4 pipes.  Starting with the ramrod entry pipe, it and the next 2 pipes were spaced at 5 and 3 proportion.  The 3 proportion between the 2nd and 3rd pipe was now the 5 proportion for finding the 3 proportion between the 3rd and 4th (forward) pipe.  It was an interesting concept that actually looked kind of cool.  The rifle appeared keep its original barrel length.
David

[M. E. Pering]

Without exception, I have never spaced pipes evenly.  The old makers I have studied didn't seem to concerned about it.  I have never aimed for the golden mean like David Rase has, but using 3 pipes, I push the middle one a bit forward usually even when not necessary.  I not only find this more historically accurate, but more attractive as well, giving a slight illusion of a slimmer rifle.  My current rifle has the middle pipe a full 1" forward of the entry pipe.  I will be posting pics of it here in the next couple of weeks, since I am about finished with it.  Back in the day, it just wasn't that important.

Matt
 

[Mike Brooks]

Middle pipe A full 1" ahead of the entry pipe? Must be a short barrel....

I shake mine up like a set of dice and give them a toss. Where ever they land is where they go.

[smart dog]

Hi,
Folks posted a lot of good advice.  The idea of 4 lugs and 3 pipes certainly does solve the problem except if you are trying to build a gun that typically had 3 barrel keys (not pins) and key escutcheons.  Obviously, keys and escutcheons stand out much more than just pins.  You can certainly use 4 keys and have 4 escutcheons as well but on many gun styles, that was not typical.

dave

[Lucky R A]

     Matt,
         A lot of the time I see less distance between the front and middle ram rod pipe than there is between the middle and the entry is because the barrel has been cut back a bit and the front pipe was relocated.  Are you sure these guns were originally built with uneven spacing?
Ron

[M. E. Pering]

Ron,

  No, I can't be sure of that.  I am just going by pictures, since I have never handled an original to determine if it is chopped or not.  My reference materials are RCAs and Whisker.  I am of the opinion though that some makers did use uneven spacing, since the difference is so subtle.  The only reasons I can see for shortening a barrel is either to make it easier to carry, or there has been some damage to the muzzle.  I think muzzle damage would be the most likely reason, since cutting off just an inch or two really isn't going to make a significant difference. 

But no... I can't say for sure the rifles I am looking at have not been shortened.  I know you have experience with shortened barrels, for sure. 

Matt

[Eric Kettenburg]

I have examined quite a number of rifles with a larger spacing between the entry pipe and the middle pipe vs. the middle pipe and forward pipe.  Generally on a 3 lug barrel, it seems as though it was common to move the middle pipe where needed forward, rather than move it rearward.  This is what I do also.  I believe that optically, it tends to look much better than moving the middle pipe back toward the entry pipe. 

[fahnenschmied]

Very often on old junk, the pipes will be placed directly behind the underlugs.  I always feel its good to copy some original in its spacing - there are good pictures in the "For Trade and Treaty" or whatever that newish trade gun book is called.