Kibler Colonial Rifle finally finished-updated. Shoots well, need lock help.

[Kary]

I absolutely love the toe plate! The carving behind the cheek piece, and barrel tang is very nice as well! I want one of those kibler kits so bad... but I’m going to have to wait for a bit longer I fear.

[Curtis]

Just saw this Norm, good to see you got it finished!!!!  It turned out great in spite of who did it!    Just ribbin' ya, friend.  The carving design you settled on worked perfectly, and is well executed.  Also glad you went with the second coat of AF, I really like the color.  Your friend will be proud.

Curtis

[JohnnyFM]

Norm, I want to be your friend...
Well done overall. Wonderful carving design and execution. I really like your engraving on the bbl. and that satin finish. Great job polishing that Chambers lock.  What steps did you take?
Johnny

[kentuckyrifleman]

That's your second go at carving? Wow.

Gives me hope for mine someday. Excellent work, and that name is great.

[WH1]

Norm
very nicely done sir.  The meteor themed embellishments are inspired. 
The color is great.  That is a rifle that will be enjoyed for generations to come.
V/R
Todd

[Chowmi]

Thanks again for all the comments! 

New owner is very happy with it, and we got to shoot it on Sunday.  At least a little bit.  Until we had major lock problems.... 

As it always seems, the lock worked great for me during the build, and during function testing before I gave it to him.  Since he had never shot a muzzleloader before, I had him shoulder the rifle on Saturday evening and dry fire the lock a few times (with the flint in, of course).  Worked great there too. 

Problems presented themselves after the first shot.  The lock was binding up.  The cock started dragging on the lock plate, and the tumbler did too.  This drag resulted in the cock not hitting the frizzen with enough force to fully open the frizzen.  Luckily, the gun still fired, albeit with a slow lock time.  I wasn't shooting the gun, so I didn't see what was happening at first. 

We stopped shooting it and I took the lock back home with me yesterday to have a better look so I could fix it.  I've spent all morning with it, and still no luck. 

For anyone with experience diagnosing and fixing this sort of problem, I'll go over what I have seen and tried.  Any help is greatly appreciated.  This might be a long missive, but I'm simply trying to give all the details so I can get this thing fixed. 

Here is a photo showing the result of what is happening:




I'll describe what I think is going on, what I think is NOT the cause, and what I have done to try to fix it.

I think:
The mainspring is applying torque on the tumbler and forcing it out of alignment, which is drawing the front edge of the cock inwards which makes it rub on the lock plate.  At the same time, it was also causing the tumbler to drag on the back of the lock plate at about the point of the half and full-cock notches.   
           The fit of the tumbler in the lock plate is not very tight.  In fact, it wobbles a bit.  I did not file or sand the inside of the tumbler hole on the lock plate, and I did not file or sand the tumbler where it sits in the lock plate. 
           
With the mainspring off, and the rest of the lock assembled, the cock moves freely, as it should.  If I point the nose of the lock down and trip the sear, the cock will fall due to gravity.  So it is NOT dragging without pressure from the mainspring.

When the mainspring off, and the rest of the lock assembled, the cock sits squarely on the lock.  As in, it is not wonky, and the lock plate and the flat back of the cock are parallel.
         
SO,
I believe it must have to do with the mainspring, and is likely due to an over-large tumbler hole.

If I dis-assemble the lock, then re-assemble it, the lock works normally once or twice, then fails to function correctly as described above.  It is as if the tension of the mainspring is progressively pulling everything out of alignment.

Here is what I have done in an attempt to fix it:

I started off by filing down the lock plate and the portion of the tumbler where both were rubbing.  I thought I would reach a point where it simply didn't rub any more.   After many tries, it became obvious that the lock would work fine for a few times, then get progressively tighter.  More filing was unlikely to solve it.  I did manage to pretty much eliminate the tumbler dragging, but not the cock. 

I tried using parts from different Round faced English lock, brand new out of the box.  I assembled the lock using the brand new tumbler, cock, and mainspring onto the troublesome lock plate.  It worked for about 5-10 times, and then began to drag a fair amount. 

I tried just using the new mainspring, with all the old parts.  No luck. 

I pretty much stumped.  The more you work the lock, the tighter it gets, and it gets pretty darn tight.  You can hear the parts squeak as you move the cock back to full cock. 

Here are a few pictures of what seems to be going on:


You can see that the tumbler is pulled out of alignment here with the mainspring on after working the lock a few times (not right after assembly). 





Here is the same thing, but showing how it forces the cock out of alignment:



Here you can see the drag marks on the plate and cock.  Note, I only put sharpie marker on the top-half of the cock.  In other words, the dragging is that skinny shiny line on the front edge, not the whole bottom portion. 





If I compare the tumbler to lock plate fit of this lock with my brand new one, there is significant slop on the tumbler of this lock.  Am I right that this is the ultimate culprit? 

Any help would be greatly appreciated.  If the culprit is the tumbler hole, I guess I need a new lock plate?  I can't weld.

Cheers,
Norm

[Telgan]

Just let Jim K.  know - I believe he'll take care of you

[Frank]

I had a problem with the lock on my Colonial Rifle last year. It did not spark very well so I contacted Katherine. She referred me to Jim Chambers and he took care of me. Good folks.

[rich pierce]

I’ll ask the dumb question, whether all is well lubed.

Most likely you’ve diagnosed the problem - loose tumbler in the plate.

However I’d still check if the hook of the mainspring which engages the tumbler is square and if that portion of the tumbler is square.


There have been some pretty worn locks that still work.  Most likely it’s a combination of things: little clearance between cock and plate being one in addition to the loose tumbler/hole situation.  That cock may be driven too far onto the axle.

[EC121]

Looks like the bridle would prevent that movement.  Cock might not be square on the shaft or if the wax got soft, maybe the tumbler was cast a little off of square.     

[Chowmi]

I’ll ask the dumb question, whether all is well lubed.

Most likely you’ve diagnosed the problem - loose tumbler in the plate.

However I’d still check if the hook of the mainspring which engages the tumbler is square and if that portion of the tumbler is square.


There have been some pretty worn locks that still work.  Most likely it’s a combination of things: little clearance between cock and plate being one in addition to the loose tumbler/hole situation.  That cock may be driven too far onto the axle.

Rich,
thanks for the reply.  It's not terribly well lubed just because I've been filing, sanding etc etc on it all morning.  However, as it tightens up, it gets so tight that I think no lube ever made would solve it.

there is not a huge amount of clearance between the cock and the lock plate.  When I got the lock, there was a huge gap.  I lightly filed on the square section of the tumbler (square section only...) and on the sides of the hole in the cock to allow the cock to seat deeper on the tumbler.  However, with the tumbler, bridle and cock assembled, it all looks good and square and there is a nice small gap- about what I was looking for.  When the mainspring is attached and the cock then moved, it seems to pull it out of alignment.  The result is that the cock sits at an angle and the leading edge rubs.

I had thought about whether the hook of the spring is square, as well as that portion of the tumbler.  It's hard to tell just looking at it, but the tumbler seems good and square.  The hook of the spring is slightly out of square, and I have lightly filed to try to remedy that. 
In any event, that was the exact reason that I cannibalized a mainspring, cock and tumbler from an English Round Faced lock.  Ended up with the same result so I think that is not the problem. 

That's the best I can figure right now.  Maybe another look at it tomorrow morning.

cheers,
Norm

[Chowmi]

Looks like the bridle would prevent that movement.  Cock might not be square on the shaft or if the wax got soft, maybe the tumbler was cast a little off of square.     

EC121,
I thought so too, which is why I started with just simple filing.  It became clear that there is enough wiggle room somewhere that it manages to get out of alignment. 

I haven't taken a square edge to the tumbler to check, but it sure looks like it was cast square.  If I assemble just the tumbler, bridle and cock, it all looks good and I don't see anything out of square when I run it through its travel. 

Hmmm..

Cheers,
Norm

[G_T]

I've spent two days reworking a lock and I'm almost done. Many things were wrong by small degrees and they all added up to potential issues.

When you assemble the lock, I presume you start with the plate, drop in a tumbler, attach the hammer, add the fly if it is present, then put the bridle on with its screw. Then put the sear in with its screw. Set neither screw tight. There is always some play in the bridle position, at least for the locks I have played with. Sometimes, way way too much play.

Square up the tumbler using the hammer as a guide and snug the bridle screw and take up the slack in the sear screw. Move the hammer through its range of motion to verify there is no binding and that it is tracking correctly. Torque the bridle screw and set the sear screw. Verify hammer motion is free again, and verify sear motion is also free.

Note the sear screw's length should be set such that it gets tight right as it gets to the bridle. It should not pull the bridle down to clamp on the sear!

At this point I like to look at the in-out motion available to the tumbler and hammer. If the tumbler can move too far away from the bridle it could potentially cause issues for the fly. If the tumbler can move too far away from the plate it could potentially cause clearance issues with the hammer.

The lock I'm working on had too much motion. I had to reduce the gap between the bridle and the lock plate to get rid of lots of excess free motion. Then the hammer was definitely too far out, so fixed that. And the sear screw gapped the bridle, so manually extended the threading of that screw to fix. Then shortened the overlength screws.

Ok, that was just one problem. There were others. Note, not the same lock model you are playing with. I won't mention the manufacturer, at least not in this thread! But the principle is the same.

Anyway, that sounds mighty similar to what you might be experiencing?

One other thing to look at in the process, is how good is the fit between the tumbler axle and the lock plate, and the axle and the bridle? Slop lets it flop around which isn't ideal. (No slop and the alignment of the bridle and lock plate becomes critical so I can see why they are shipping sloppy - buggered screw heads on new locks is not a good sign).

IMHO slop shouldn't be present in new locks, but, I've seen examples which are pretty bad. Some days it seems QC is non-existant. Sometimes you find a good one. Sometimes you find the hangover special. I may be relatively inexperienced with longrifles but I've been making things all my life. I've come to look at locks as a kit of parts. Nothing about them should be taken for granted.

Gerald

[Adrie luke]

Norm,
I am sorry to hear you have a problem with your lock.
I do not understand everything everybody writes, including you, but I give you my opinion.
I recognize the problem.
First you can try to turn around the flint stone, so you have a higher point on your frizzen.
Than you can look at the frizzen spring, a little bit of oil can help, because the metal of the frizzen can scrape your frizzen spring.
When the frizzen spring is too strong, the frizzen will struggle.
When I make a flintlock lock and it works, and it struggles later, I always think the lock worked so that is all right, do not change it.
The problem must be something else.
As an example, the sear jumped from the tumbler and I filed the tumbler a little bit for more grip, but the problem was the sear spring.
When I used the lock the sear spring became weaker. I made a new spring and it worked.
When you file something it is gone and you can not get it back.

I hope you find something. Success!
Adrie

[Frank]

Instead of fooling around with this lock and guessing what the problem is, contact Jim Chambers.


https://www.flintlocks.com/index.htm

[Nordnecker]

I agree with everyone else. I like your embellishments.

[ron w]

beautiful !,...I love the carving and the reference to his meteor hunting. it fits the gun well because they did put that kind of artwork on the originals.

[Bob Roller]

Mismatched diameters on the tumbler shafts.It can happen in production work.
I would wager more than a dollar on Jim Chambers being able to restore this
lock to his usual high standards.

Bob Roller

[smart dog]

Hi Norm,
The fact that you can notice slop in the tumbler and its hole in the lock plate should pretty well sum up the problem. The problem likely was much less noticeable until you filed down the shoulders on the tumbler bringing the flintcock closer to the plate.  The lock should go back to Chambers for fixing with a new tumbler.  Hopefully, the tumbler hole was not drilled and reamed too large. Then a new lock plate is in order.  I hate to say it but I have also had some issues lately with Chambers locks.  On the last Siler I used, the tumbler pivot was actually out of round causing it to bind in the plate.  On another, a Golden Age lock, the slot for the sear spring was so shallow that the spring flipped out of position when the sear was pressed.

dave 

[Pukka Bundook]

Dave,

When I started reading this thread, I figured it needs a new lock plate, or at least a reamed and sleeved hole for the tumbler.

Lube won't help the way it is.
If a tumbler with an over-sized shank was available, that may work, but still it's the lock plate that is the problem I think.

Richard.

[Chowmi]

Hi Norm,
The fact that you can notice slop in the tumbler and its hole in the lock plate should pretty well sum up the problem. The problem likely was much less noticeable until you filed down the shoulders on the tumbler bringing the flintcock closer to the plate. 

dave

Thanks Dave,
you are right, the problem was not noticeable until I brought the flintcock closer to the plate.  The gap was quite large.  I looked at the photos of your fowler tutorial and tried to get mine closer to what you had done on yours.  That was one of the last things I did.  Combined with the fact that the problem takes a few cycles to appear, I just didn't catch it. 

Once I saw that the tumbler seemed loose, and a substitute tumbler didn't work, I strongly suspected that a new plate or tumbler was in order. 

Disappointing, as I really wanted to be able to fix this myself.  I'll have another look at everything today, just to make sure I didn't miss anything.  If nothing else comes up, I'll talk to Jim about it. 

thanks for all the help guys!

Cheers,
Norm

[Adrie luke]

It seems the bridle pushes the tumbler down.
Is the bridle straight?

[L Meadows]

Copied from the Contemporary Longrifle Association Facebook page;

From Jim Chambers Flintlocks, Ltd.  - We have had quite a few locks returned to us as of late for complaints of they just won't function.  Once the locks arrive we have found them completely void of any oil or lubricants.  I am talking dry and grinding metal on metal.  The customer is correct, those locks just won't work, but its not the craftsmanship of the lock that is the problem, but instead the care of the lock.  Once we've oiled and greased them, they work wonderfully.  So I want to share this with as many groups as possible to make sure folks are taking good care of their locks. 

All metal parts of any machine, whether it be your car or your flintlock, require lubrication to function!  Imagine how far your car would run if you drained all the oil out.  It's the same with locks, metal on metal needs lubrication.

The parts that actually rub or bear on each other such as the main spring toe and tumbler, or the frizzen spring and frizzen toe, require a good thick grease to minimize friction and eliminate any chances of galling. 

The other parts that move but don't rub, require a good machine oil to help them turn and function properly.
 
So please, clean and then re-lubricate your locks.  This will ensure they continue to work great for many years to come!

And to help everyone remember, I'll quote LC Rice here - "There is only one thing on earth that is self lubricating and self expanding and y'alls locks aren't it.  So put some grease on these things!"

[G_T]

That's fine, but, I've seen locks lately that certainly failed my personal inspection. And I didn't inspect super hard.

I'm about 14 hours into fixing a lock that already was back once to fix an issue. And I'm not quite done yet. Lube wasn't the problem.

Gerald

[Chowmi]

Fellas,
thanks for all the replies, and it has brought up a good discussion about keeping the lock well oiled. 

After a day of thinking about it, I went back and looked at a few things on the lock.  I measured the shank on the tumbler, where it sits in the lock plate hole, at .310.  The tumbler hole in the lock plate measured at .312.  I figured 2 thousandths was likely a good fit.  I suspect the slop I was seeing resulted from the way I tested it.  I had the tumbler and cock attached, with nothing else (no bridle, etc).  I probably did not have the tumbler seated all the way in, and that allowed the slop. 

I'm not much of a locksmith, so these were all good lessons.

I worked a bit more on the lock, and it is functioning well.  I have "fired", or cycled the lock about 50 times with a wooden flint in, and it has performed as advertised with no hiccups. 

I spoke with Karen from Chamber's this morning just to see if she thought I should send it back for an inspection and/or repair if required.  We agreed that it is functioning well and does not need to be returned.

If I may ask, let's put the subject of quality of castings etc to bed.  It has been a good discussion, and helpful but could devolve into bashing. 

thanks again for all the help,

Cheers,
Norm