shooting bag history

[axelp]

I saw where a bag maker describes one of his bags as an "early bag."  I have always understood that actual dated archeology on the shooting bag is pretty slim... but I imagine there are a few agreed upon general rules of thumb? Are there distinguishing design/material characteristics that determine what timeframe and geographic area a bag might represent? I am thinking size, strap config and material, flap and flap closure type, gusset, no gusset, decoration, leather type etc....

I know, a lot going on there. Maybe suggested reliable resources that address this?

thank you

K

[Marcruger]

James Roger makes a speciatly out of researching bags in old paintings and recreating them. He does a superior job too.
I recently based a bag off of one in a mid-1700s steel engraving. I’d say this approach safely allows one to say it is an “early” bag. I consider pre-Revolution to be early.

[axelp]

what makes an "early bag" early?

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Ken:  simple answer:  the time period is which it was made.  Caucasian history in North America is all late compared to other parts of the world, notably, Europe.  But we do have a rich and robust documented history from the late 15th C. onwards.  Researching paintings by European artists about North American life is a good place to learn what accoutrements were like as any given recorded date in this continent.  Paul Kane, Alfred Jacob Miller, even Fredrick Remington, to name a few.

[scottmc]

Hello Ken, I'm the one advertising one of my bags as an "early" bag.  I base this only on information that I have obtained from books such as Madison Grant and Jim Webb.  It seems that square or rectangular bags tended to be more early than late according to their research.  Early being pre rev or even rev era.  I am not and never wii have the knowledge that others such as James Roger's have on the subject but I do love pouches and their history and study them whenever I get the opportunity to see an original.  I hope that answers why i have used the word early for the bag. 

[Mark Elliott]

I use the word "early" the way that Wallace Gusler uses it.  That is,  anything 1775 or earlier is "early".    That is the beginning of the American Revolution.   Bags that can be dated to the American Revolution and earlier tend to be very simple, fairly small , and squarish.   My "Early VA" pouch is based on an original, the construction of which can be associated with bags dated as far back as the French and Indian War.   There are very few early bags in existence.   Most shot pouches are 19th century.   

I have extensive documentation of my "Early VA" pouch on my web site at: http://www.markelliottva.com/wordpress/2018/12/early-va-shot-pouch-powder-horn-bag-10-horn-6/

[B.Barker]

I seen a beaver tail double bag at a show once that had the date 1808 or 1806 carved into it as part of a design. I took photo's of it but it was with a 35mm and the flash didn't work so my photo's were worthless. Wish they would have turned out, it was a neat pouch. I'm not positive on the body shape or if it had the strap still. But I do remember it was about 7"x8" in size.

[James Rogers]

Just my opinion but in the black powder related hobbies the term "early" usually seems to equate to pre-rev war for most people. Early for me is much earlier ; )
Of course "early" is only applicable when in relation to an established time frame of "not early" or "late". The rev-war period seems to be that period for most when they actually stop to consider their use of the term.
I believe it's most frequent use (or abuse) would be the "early Virginia rifle"

[axelp]

This helps a lot. Appreciate the clarification.

Ken

[EricEwing]

Just my opinion but in the black powder related hobbies the term "early" usually seems to equate to pre-rev war for most people. Early for me is much earlier ; )
Of course "early" is only applicable when in relation to an established time frame of "not early" or "late". The rev-war period seems to be that period for most when they actually stop to consider their use of the term.
I believe it's most frequent use (or abuse) would be the "early Virginia rifle"

This...
Also adding “___style” to describe a bag amuses me. Especially with regards to a geographic location.
When I first started making bags I was influenced more by what other people were doing and erroneous info in now dated books rather than actually studying old bags. Finding a way to label or date a bag was oddly important to me. I think people are most comfortable when they’re able to neatly categorize anything. After a while I think I realized there’s only a handful of confirmed 18th century American bags and none of them look like anything anybody wants to use or make. I think once I realized that the ability to categorize and date something was nearly impossible I became much more comfortable learning about and studying antique bags.

[rich pierce]

Eric, you hit the nail on the head. Original guns and even powder horns can be classified and assigned to an approximate place and time. Bags, not so much.

[Marcruger]

"Eric, you hit the nail on the head. Original guns and even powder horns can be classified and assigned to an approximate place and time. Bags, not so much."

Not arguing with you at all Rich, regarding original bags, unless you know the person who had it.  Certain bag/horn/rifle sets have made it down through the ages.  That at least gives us a tiny window into "time and place".

If you are copying a bag from a painting of a known person, then you can attribute time and place.  In other words, if you have a painting showing a 40-year-old Lord Stuffinsuch-Smythe from Wiltshire England with a particular bag, and you know his lifespan, you can give an approximate date.  In that case I'd say something like "southern English influenced shooting bag from the 1790s" or similar. 

We tend to talk American gear, and to some degree, I think some folks view American made bags as something created by a hill-billy mountain man around his fire using a pennyknife.  There was a lot of importing going on in America's early history.  I am a bit amused to see someone carrying a fairly crude Appalachian looking pounch with a Golden Age ornamented longrifle.  I think someone in the day with the means to have a fine rifle would have had a fine bag too. Also, good sewing and repairing were pretty common skills that were needed back in everyday life. 

I also believe that your coastal areas would have had a lot more English and European influence in the 1600s, 1700s, and early 1800s.  It was cheaper to import goods along the coast than to make them locally in many cases.  It was explained to me that is why there were few coastal gun makers in the Carolinas back in the 1700 and 1800s. English imports were so reasonable.  Transport would have added a lot to the cost away from the coast. 

So, I think we should keep firmly in mind that "where" was a big influence in "early" bags.  For example, Louis the XV's shooting bag from 1750 would have looked a lot different than a poor Scots-Irish man scraping out a living in the back-country mountains of North Carolina.   And both of their shooting bags would have looked different than Virginia's Lt Governor Robert Dinwiddie's bag of the same era in eastern Virginia. 

My personal opinion is that vinegaroon is part of the reason we have so relatively few bags to view today.  Rubbing acetic acid into leather does not seem a long-term solution.  We can understand that now, but they may not have then. 

Best wishes, and God Bless,   Marc

[Marcruger]

I believe it's most frequent use (or abuse) would be the "early Virginia rifle"

James, I am thinking the photo below would describe an early Virginia rifle.    :-D  God Bless,   Marc