Shipper's graver angle

[Justin Urbantas]

So, I picked up Shipper's engraving book, and have been working on my engraving lately. In the sharpening section he suggests sharpening a square graver at 45º for the face and short heels sharpened at 5º.  I tried multiple times with this 5º angle and couldn't get a consistent cut. It kept digging in too deep. Also, my fingers would get in the way often. I changed the heel angle to 15º and it is going exponentially better. Is there an advantage to 5º? Why does he use 5º and why can't I get it to work? He obviously knows what he's doing and it works for him. Thanks guys

[jerrywh]

 Low heel angles like that are generally only used for hand push engraving. Better yet try a 20° heel angle.

[Justin Urbantas]

I wonder why he suggests it then for hammer and chisel?

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

It may be because of the technique John uses:  only two fingers, or rather a finger and thumb on the graver, and lets the friction of the cutter in the metal do the rest.  I've never tried his technique, always falling back to my fist grip on the graver in my right hand, and the hammer in my left.  I'm left handed.

[Justin Urbantas]

I'm the same way,  just reversed. I like to hold in my left fist and cut right to left. I find his 2 finger method awkward, and my fingers hurt after about 4 inches of lines.

[jerrywh]

 There is no universal Graver geometry. Every different way you hold your graver may require a different geometry. There are certain rules that apply almost always. One rule is to always look at the face of the graver when cutting. My Moto is [ nobody is always correct, not even me.] This goes for Shippers or anybody else.
there are usually exceptions.  Nothing beats one on one instructions from a professional. Just because somebody wrote a book doesn't mean he is always correct. Actually a 5° heel isn't even used on a hand push engraver most of the time.  You would be wise to be skeptical and if a geometry doesn't work for you. Check it out.  When I used hammer and chisel I usually used a 20° heel or even a 25° heel. However it depends on what you are trying to accomplish.
 

[Jerry]

Sharpen your chisels to whatever works for you. Years ago I progressed much better when I decided to develop my own technique, whether sharpening the graver or holding the tool. I have actually tried chisels sharpened by one of the best engravers that I have ever met. My results with his chisel looked so bad. So, keep working on your technique. Jerry

[G_T]

I do a little engraving but I am not an accomplished engraver.

For certain types of engraving, such as some bright cutting in jewelry work, you  can use a very shallow heel. When such a graver is used, usually the intent is to cut out at the far edge of the cut with the cut getting deeper as one goes. Or it is when one is cutting on a geometry such as a curved surface. Consider it a specialty tool IMHO.

15 degrees is a more normal heel angle for a push graver, or its power equivalent. I'd expect more like 20 degrees for H&C and I know I prefer angles above 15 for H&C.

For script work, border work, scroll work, I expect to have to drive the graver from a deep line to a shallower line. The graver will follow the heel. To get a 5 degree graver to climb while cutting smooth, one needs to lower the dull end to below 5 degrees from parallel to the surface. That leaves little room to actually hold the tool!

With a bent graver one could do it, but I would expect it to drag terribly around curves. For straight lines on flat it might be fine for a bent graver. But then, why bother? A more conventional geometry works fine for straight lines too.

https://www.amazon.com/Experts-Guide-Graver-Sharpening-Alfano/dp/B00WIMR966 - though a bit pricy, this is a good introduction to graver sharpening.

IMHO, which is worth nothing, increase the graver angles about 5 degrees for H&C, and make the face angle a little steeper compared to the heel angles. It takes a little more force to cut that way (which the hammer provides) but the point is stronger.

Face vs heel angle - rough equivalents - 12 degree heel 45 degree face, 15 degree heel 42 degree face, 20 degree heel 37 degree face. The angle between the heel and the face is the same, so they cut very similarly. The difference is primarily the angle the engraver has to approach the work surface to establish a uniform depth cut. Those angles are approximately the heel angle. So what angle do you want to hold your graver when cutting a horizontal line?

Gerald

[kutter]

I've used a 50* face and a 15* heel for a very long time on steel.  I blunt the point if needed almost microscopicly if it breaks off repeatedly in tough metal. I use a V face cutter w/an included angle of 70*. I like it much more than the 90* included angle that a plain square bit gives you. But those square lathe tool bits are nice and easy to sharpen up into graver bits as they are. Saves a lot of work.

Once in a while I have to boost the face angle up or I drop it down depending on the material. 
A short heel won't drag around the curves and it cuts just as well as a longer one.
I don't like to fuss a lot with the tools. Get it to cut nicely and stick with it.

[Justin Urbantas]

Thanks for the advice, folks. I'll get some more tool bits and try out your angle suggestions and see what works best. It's encouraging that most people use a steeper angle

[bama]

There are so many engraving geometries that can be used that it is hard to recommend just one. Many of them can do the same job and have the ability to do certain things just a little different. Knowing this takes a little time and experimentation. The simplest point to teach is the 90 deg with a 45 deg face and 15 deg heals. This graver will cut the bulk of what is done on the American long rifle. Now with that said, if you ask those that have been engraving a while what point they use I would be willing to bet that none of them use this point. Why is that you say? Because I find that point limited to pretty much a very consistent point to cut a line that is the same width and depth. Then you ask, well is that not what I am looking for? Yes and no is the answer. If you look at the engraving that appeals to the eye you will start to see that the lines are not cut consistently but vary in width and depth. It is hard to get this variation with the standard 90 deg graver. Yes you can get some variation with but not as much as with some of the wider angled graver geometries. The first step in this process is to learn how to sharpen the 90 deg graver. Cut with it for a time, then get one of the set ups to sharpen one of the wider geometries. A good one to start with is the Universal Point that Steve Lindsay offers. I think it is a 116 degree graver. You will find using this graver you can get a lot of variation in line width and depth very easily. When you first start using it you will more than likely find that you can put way to much flare with this graver. Once you learn to control it you will find that you can cut very thin shading lines and very nicely flared lines, it will make several different cuts using one graver.

It is a learning process, one that you have to determine for yourself, all we can really do is give a suggestion of a place to start.

[G_T]

Uniform Parallel Point: http://www.airgraver.com/photos/relieving-graver1.gif

Gerald

[kutter]

"...A good one to start with is the Universal Point that Steve Lindsay offers. I think it is a 116 degree graver. You will find using this graver you can get a lot of variation in line width and depth very easily..."

I've read that famous US engraver Rudolph Kornbrath liked to use a 120* included angle point for most of his general scroll and border cutting.  Certainly can't argue results. But each person has to find what works for them.
I use a 70* and cut about the entire pattern(s) with the one tool. I find a 90* too wide for me but used to use it when I started.

All of these figures are just suggestions that have worked successfully for others. They may or may not for you.
It takes some hard work, determination and attention to detail to finally hit the right combination for you.

Figure in the style of the handle, shape, length,,the length of the graver bit, it's overall size (too thin,,too thick above the point?),,hammer too heavy, too light. Standing or sitting while cutting, cutting away from you or some cut towards themselves,
So many different things in play.,,,and there is no one 'best' method or tool.
Results are the measure of success.

[Justin Urbantas]

I am confused by the 116º and 120º  angles. What angles are the face and heels? I have this and multiple stones for sharpening. It adjusts from 0º to 90º.

[Joe Stein]

Justin, with regard to 116* and 120*, etc.: If you look at a square graver head on, or take a cross section of the graver, the shape has four 90* angles.  If you set so you are looking at it the way you engrave, the bottom angle of the graver is a 90* angle.  On the wider 120 and 116 angles, the bottom angle is 120 or 116 degrees.  The end cross section is not square.
I hope this doesn't just confuse people.

[jerrywh]

 I'm sure Kornbrath never used an included angle of 120°.  It is impossible to cut with an included angle of over 80°  a 90 ° included is absolutely impossible to hold in the metal. some people are confused about what included angle means. The included angle is the total ot he face angle and the heel angle. There is so much misinformation on the internet I don't see how anybody can learn anything. Beginners don't have the ability to sort out the truth from the hearsay.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

...and the hearsay from the heresy.

[kutter]

I am not confused..
.....The inside angle of the face of the graver....the included angle formed betw the two edges of the graver point.... 90* if it's square.
Sharpen the graver so the sides leave you with with an 'included angle' wider than that,,,like 120*,,and that's what you have.,,an included angle of 120*.
That ain't so hard to figure. Why make it so. Engraving is tough enough to learn.

The face angle is just that,, the angle the face of the graver is sharpened to.


What need is there to keep track or even know what the total sum of the face and  heel angle is, (.."The included angle is the total ot he face angle and the heel angle." ).
You don't engrave with the heel,,it allows you to engrave.
Find a heel angle and length that makes it comfortable to cut. Clearance  for your fingers, no diving into the metal and no drag marks around the curves.

You are right about one thing though,,, Kornbrath never did engrave with a 120* included angle graver,,not by your definition of the term.

[G_T]

All of you all probably know all of this, and many of you know this much better than I. So if you do, don't waste your time reading what I'm writing!

Let's say you are push engraving in sterling silver. Then you might use a 45 degree face angle and a 15 degree heel angle. If you are engraving scrollwork, you might use perhaps a 112 degree graver. It cuts a little wider line for the depth of cut. then a 90 degree graver. Then, when you tilt the graver around, going around curves, you can readily flare the line on one side compared to the other. You can also widen or narrow a line without changing the depth of cut much. That makes it easier to widen or narrow a line rapidly. A 90 degree (square) graver doesn't flare as easily and it cuts deeper for the same desired width of line. The angle of the reflections from the bright cut is also different. A shallower cut angle will pick up light a little better IMHO. A graver such as 112 degrees or wider also allows one to make wide lines on thin stock.

Let's say you are power graving or Hammer & Chisel graving in that same sterling. The same angles will work. But since you have more impulse power by far at your control, you might want to steepen that face up slightly - or better yet - just stub the tip of the point perhaps 5 degrees more vertical. It makes for a stronger point.

Let's say you are H&C or power gravng in soft steel. You COULD use the same angles as the push graver angles, but your odds of breaking the tip are a little higher. It is better to use the stubbed angles at a minimum.

Let's say your steel is a little harder. Then you want the face a little more vertical for more shearing and less wedging, and a stronger point. It's like the difference between a cold chisel and a wood chisel. A wood chisel will cut metal - briefly!

Again, for H&C, likely you want more than 15 degrees for the heel and the face angle would be adjusted accordingly so the included angle is unchanged. Even a 25 degree heel wouldn't bother me.

Graver shapes -

Perhaps you are just cutting a groove of constant width.  Well you could take a piece of carbon steel, grind a taper on it, put a face on the narrow end, and put a fine heel on. Cut moderately deep and the width is roughly constant.

But you could do it even better with a flat bottomed graver with nearly parallel sides.

If you want the cut to be bright, polish the the little heel facets.

Keep the graver very sharp! The point should easily stick not slide on a fingernail.

You pick the shape for the intended cutting.
You pick the angles for the material.
You pick the heel angle for clearance.

Gerald

[jerrywh]

 Kutter.
    What your describing  is belly angle. This is exactly what I meant.  Included angle is the combined total of the heel angle and the face angle.  There is a lot of confusion over nomenclature. Even some of the best engravers in the world get the nomenclature mixed up.
   

[Justin Urbantas]

I appreciate the help, but this is all still confusing as can be. I need to find diagrams that show the faces and their angles labeled. That would make it easier.

[jerrywh]

 Soon I will post a diagram that was sent to me by Marty Rabino who teaches engraving and is one of the best engravers in the world in my opinion. He also makes long rifles for himself and hunts with them in Colorado. He has been watching this forum and suggested that I post this chart. I should have it today.

[Marcruger]

"Soon I will post a diagram that was sent to me by Marty Rabino who teaches engraving and is one of the best engravers in the world in my opinion. He also makes long rifles for himself and hunts with them in Colorado. He has been watching this forum and suggested that I post this chart. I should have it today."


Marty must be one heck of an engraver if you think so Jerry!  I have seen yours, and if Marty's is better, that must really be something.  God Bless,   Marc

[jerrywh]

 Marty taught art at NY college for a long time. He is a lot better than me at some stuff. Especially at bolino or line engraving. But I'm learning and he is helping me. Marty is a real nice guy when he shows up at Vegas you will have some tough competition. 

[JTR]

I need to find diagrams that show the faces and their angles labeled.

Here's some pictures from the Lindsay engraving pages.
Just pay attention to the width of the V point angle at the front, and never mind all the other angles for now. For example, the first picture, 70 degrees is the angle of the main V at the front, and no other part of the tool is used in this value.

The first is a 70 degree point.


The second is a 96 degree point.


The third is a 116.7 degree point.