2F or 3F in a .54

[OldMtnMan]

Yes, and there's nothing wrong with that. I believe 3F burns faster and more complete than 2F. Also, you can use less for the same fps as 2F. That means even less fouling. So, using less and a more complete bun should give less fouling.

This may not be noticed if you don't swab. (Daryl )

[Daryl]

 

Yes, and there's nothing wrong with that. I believe 3F burns faster and more complete than 2F. Also, you can use less for the same fps as 2F. That means even less fouling. So, using less and a more complete bun should give less fouling.

This may not be noticed if you don't swab. (Daryl )

That statement doesn't make sense.  We don't swab because it is not necessary due in part, perhaps, to the less fouling by 2F. Who knows?

Been shooting this way since about 1975, so I don't know if today's 3F fouls more or less than today's 2F - It used to and that is why we switched to 2F.

Today, neither of those two or three (if you include 1F)  granulations foul the bore for us, so no swabbing is necessary.

When I/we clean our bores after a day's shooting, the water we pump into and out our bores from a container is only slightly greyish is colour, still very clear.

Using 3F in your .54 just might be the reason you HAVE to swab - but then, you likely never thought of that, being so stuck on your methods - which is fine, but you

don't have to, if you are willing to change. Obviously not and, that's OK- it's your choice - as we have oft times said.

Hey if you have to swab out your bore after each shot, or after 3, 5 or whatever shots made, so be it.  If you are happy doing that - by all means keep it up.

All we are saying (and have so many times, is if you don't want to have to swab your bore before you can load it again, you don't have to, if you follow a certain prescription.

We have said this many times over. We've also found this makes no difference if we are using a water based lube, Track's mink oil or Neetsfoot oil on the target range or trail

walk or when hunting small game where there are many shots made over a day's shooting. We do not get a build up of fouling (with any granulation) so no swabbing is necessary.

We have never said that the way we/I load, is the only way.  Obviously there are many people who load differently than we doe and many thought the bore had to be swabbed.

What we have done and quite successfully to people who were looking for a 'better' way, is to show them how.  We've received quite a number of e-mails and private messages

thanking us for explaining these methods.   

You are the one who said we or I said ours is the only way to load.  That is simply not true.  So for you.

[OldMtnMan]

Daryl...........How would I know if 3F shoots better in my gun if I didn't shoot 2F to compare? I shoot a lot of 2F if the gun likes it better than 3F. It would seem you wouldn't know which one fouls more since you don't swab.

If a powder burns faster and more complete. Wouldn't you think it would have less fouling? Does 4F have less fouling than 1F? Certainly, if you can use less powder they'll be less fouling. You should agree with that. Generally, you'll use less 3F than 2F when developing a load.

 Here's why I can't get into your method. I've seen you recommend a bore size ball and a stiff .022 patch. I don't have to try that to know it's going to load hard. Even with the muzzle coned it's going to push down hard. Even on a completely clean bore. I'd prefer an easier loading load even if it means swabbing.

Neither your way or my way is wrong because they both work. Swab and load easier or load hard and don't swab. Everybody has the choice.

[Daryl]

Except the regular loads we use do not load hard.   They load easily, with the rifle's rod.

[OldMtnMan]

Except the regular loads we use do not load hard.   They load easily, with the rifle's rod.

We're talking in PM's. We can stop boring everybody on the forum with this.   

[MuskratMike]

Can we PLEASE get back on topic. If you shoot .54 caliber patched round balls. Do you use 3F or 2F and why? I would like to stick with 3F on my soon to be delivered new rifle and pistol. Opinions on THIS TOPIC PLEASE.

[rich pierce]

Mike, 1F, 2F, or 3F will work.  A friend of mine shot 1F in a .36 cal rifle just to see.  Fouling seemed a little more prevalent but it grouped fine off the bench.  If he was doing a bench match or over the log shoot he’d want to work up that final load that is 20% more accurate I’m sure.  I’m not discounting working up a load but imagine if you will the variability of powder available in the 1750-1800 timeframe to someone on the frontier.

[Smokey Plainsman]

I've used up to 120 grains of 3Fg in my hawkins gun with .535 roundie and .018 ticking patch, tight fit. Recoil was noticeable yet manageable. Hammer was blown free to half's cock.

[fishdfly]

Sounds like it is time to replace your nipple.  That is indication your nipple is burned out.

[alacran]

I believe Fishdfly is right I have shot up to 130 grains of 2f in my Hawken with a Grifith brecch plug. I have done this in long gong shoots. multiple shots taken. I have never had the hammer return to half cock.
Nipple erosion is something that a lot of cap lock shooters neglect  to check.

[Pukka Bundook]

Muskrat Mike,

Yes, I am sure you can work up a good load with 3F.   I am happy with 2 F but that doesn't count.  3 F will work fine.
We all look forward to your range reports as you work up the load!!

[OldMtnMan]

Can we PLEASE get back on topic. If you shoot .54 caliber patched round balls. Do you use 3F or 2F and why? I would like to stick with 3F on my soon to be delivered new rifle and pistol. Opinions on THIS TOPIC PLEASE.

We did answer the question. You'll have to try both powders and see which one your gun likes. There is no set answer. You could pick either powder, develop a load and be happy. They'll both work. It's only if you're really picky about accuracy that you'll have to work up a load for both powders to see which works better.

[WadePatton]

It's your gun you have to tell us what it prefers according to your specific needs/desires.  You may favor accuracy over velocity, or the other way 'round. 

Or if you simply want to use 3F, go right ahead and work up your load, enjoy.  Done dealio-you won't be the only powder-pouring pilgrim using 3F in a size .540 pipe. 

[Daryl]

It's your gun you have to tell us what it prefers according to your specific needs/desires.  You may favor accuracy over velocity, or the other way 'round. 

Or if you simply want to use 3F, go right ahead and work up your load, enjoy.  Done dealio-you won't be the only powder-pouring pilgrim using 3F in a size .540 pipe.

Exactly- using 3F will be cheaper as has been noted.  I find in the smaller calibres, .40 and .45, the accuracy load for 2F is 10gr. MORE than what shoots well in 3F. By the time you
get to .54, that difference mostly likely will be around 15gr., give or take a few grains.
If you use a large bored powder measure, like a hogged out piece of antler, your stricken measures will likely vary 3 to 5gr. per throw - up and down. I prefer a measure that is only 3/8"
inside diameter and with that size, filling from my horn, if weighing those 'throws', the variance is less than .5gr.  Consistency is the jewel of accuracy.  An old friend, not gone, who was friends
with Les Bauska and John Buhmiller of Kalispel once told me that fully 50% of your accuracy is in your load and how consistently you load it.
Lester H. Hawkes was his name and was a BP shooter since about the 1930's. Wonderful man and mentor to me.
Les was also an aspiring photographer. He didn't quite get the picture of his gang, centered. This picture was taken late 40's I think, maybe very early 50's.
The Blond gal. in the middle became Less' Wife - wonderful gal, Irene. All of the rifles were originals as far as I know, but by then, seems to me, Les said he had built a few.

[axelp]

nice picture.

[Daryl]

Tks Ken - they certainly have a variety of rifle styles, from military rifled musket bottom left, to Lehigh and Ohio on the right top & perhaps a Dimmick plains rifle on the top left.

[OldMtnMan]

Back row, 2nd from left. Where is he pointing his gun?

[Daryl]

Looks like the muzzle is behind Irene's head. I looked at that a few times myself, Pete.  Appears the end of the forend is behind Irene's skunk skin hat.

[Leatherbark]

I don't think 3f doesn't burns and more complete than 2f.  When firing 65 grains of each out of a 50 caliber flintlock, the fireball is around 12 inches or so long when caught with a modern Phone camera.  So I believe that the soot created by each powder is different in how it sticks to the inside of the barrel.  The larger burning granules have a larger ash. That ash wont burn if you light it with a match therefore all of the powder burned either inside the barrel or in the big fireball outside of the barrel.

I have read of people saying they used so much powder that after firing there was unburnt powder on the snow in front of the firing line. They must have been using much more than 65 grains.

Bob

[Daryl]

Bob - people look at the burnt charcoal/residue/fouling in the snow and say it is unburnt powder.   Do an experiment using a sheet and see how much of that
fouling burns again.

With the speed confined BP burns inside the barrel, it is all on fire within an inch or two of the breech with an extreme spike of pressure, then the pressure is reduced down the length of the tube.  The expanding gasses are what pushes the ball or bullet down the bore.  That is why minnie-type bullets (& plane based bullets for that matter) will expand to fill the rifling, even with the lighter loads in pistols. The very rapid burning and pressure spike cause this.  Of course, the longer the barrel, the higher the velocity as the pressure wave has longer to push the ball or bullet.

Back in the day of very poor quality powders, barrels were longer to utilize it. This was not because it was slower burning, but due (most likely) to lower overall pressures generated, thus needing longer (barrels) bore time to use as much of the impetus as possible to achieve decent velocities.



 

[MuskratMike]

Daryl: your explanation on the burning of black powder, regardless of size was spot on. I could not have wrote it better. Thanks for posting it.

[Bob Roller]

I believe Fishdfly is right I have shot up to 130 grains of 2f in my Hawken with a Grifith brecch plug. I have done this in long gong shoots. multiple shots taken. I have never had the hammer return to half cock.
Nipple erosion is something that a lot of cap lock shooters neglect  to check.

You will see the groups shot by a long range muzzle loader open up a lot
if the nipple burns out.Many of them use a nipple with a platinum insert
in the base to prevent this.In a poorly made breech this blowing back of
the hammer can sometimes be because the nipple blew out as well.
That's a real attention getter.

Bob Roller