Author Topic: Pathfinding:  (Read 4037 times)

Offline Wingshot

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 229
  • Brand new NMLRA member
Pathfinding:
« on: March 15, 2019, 06:17:57 AM »
I’m a fairly new member here and have for the most part lurked in the shadows, absorbing as much of the sage wisdom and generous sharing of gun building knowledge that you all offer so freely. My intent at the beginning of my journey into building started with me initially wanting to build a Tennessee Rifle, that opinion has evolved. I’ve been reading Dixon’s book, The Art of Buildimg the PA Longrifle, Shumway’s, Recreating the American Longrifle as well as researching anything and everything I can on-line. The dilemma I find myself in now is that I’m confused as to whether I want to build what I THINK is the right rifle as opposed to what I WANT in said rifle. My intentions are to craft an accurate, sweet shooting, well balanced .32 cal. that will be primarily used to hunt squirrel and whatnot as well as to spend time doing offhand shooting/plinking at paper, steel, whatever. A swamped barrel seems most appropriate and I desire to keep the wood plain, no frills, all utility. My question: What style would be the best choice to meet my requirements and at the same time accurately represent a similar rifle crafted in the 1760-70 time period? Is a Tennessee stock with iron furniture appropriate or am I stretching it a bit? I welcome all your suggestions and appreciate the fact this forum exists. Please forgive my long post and inexperience.

Offline Stophel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4532
  • Chris Immel
Re: Pathfinding:
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2019, 06:42:03 AM »
It would be stretching it a lot.  That type of gun simply did not exist 1760-70.  I won't discourage you from making a Tennessee rifle, it's a good way to get shooting and start learning, but you have a LOT of research ahead of you to get you to 1760's.   ;)
« Last Edit: March 15, 2019, 06:49:21 AM by Stophel »
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline Wingshot

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 229
  • Brand new NMLRA member
Re: Pathfinding:
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2019, 08:11:11 AM »
It would be stretching it a lot.  That type of gun simply did not exist 1760-70.  I won't discourage you from making a Tennessee rifle, it's a good way to get shooting and start learning, but you have a LOT of research ahead of you to get you to 1760's.   ;)
« Last Edit: Today at 06:49:21 AM by Stophel »

Fair enough point, I guess what I’m seeking is essentially THE era that a rifle similar to what I described as well as posing this question, what should I be studying as far as the “school” or “style” of utilitarian, Everyman Rifle? I’m not locked into replicating a tool from a specific flint rifle period as much I’m interested in recreating one that would be true to whatever style of rifle that closely matches the boxes I’ve checked in my head as far as what I’d like that rifle to be. The SMR, “barn” or “hog” rifle seems to fill some of the bill but would a rifle like that have a swamped barrel? I know that many were actually smooth bores.

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7013
Re: Pathfinding:
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2019, 02:53:53 PM »
Hi and welcome Wingshot,
You came to the right place.  American long rifles before the end of the Rev War generally were of calibers larger than 45, strongly influenced by European styling, primarily Germanic, stocked in maple and mounted with brass hardware. Carving was usually present although often simple. The vast majority of rifles at the time were made in southern PA, western MD, and northern VA. After the war, the rifles tended toward smaller caliber, thinner and lighter stocks, and decoration often included carving and metal inlays.  Rifle making also moved along with human migrations into KY, OH, and TN.  Rifles mounted with forged iron parts became more popular as did calibers less than 45.  Eventually, carved decoration diminished greatly even on "fancy" rifles and was replaced by metal inlays or nothing at all. The small caliber "squirrel" gun you describe is a product of the 19th century, probably the 1830s and later. It would have a good imported lock (not something like a Siler but like Chambers late Ketland) and possibly forged, not cast, iron mounts.  The stock likely would be maple or walnut. Shumay's "Rifles in Colonial America" is a good source for early and Rev War period guns.  I am sure others can offer some good titles on Southern and Mid-western rifles.

dave 
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Richard Snyder

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 42
Re: Pathfinding:
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2019, 04:20:02 PM »
For the rifle you are describing, set your clock forward the better part of a century and google "Soddy-Daisy rifle".  That's where I thing you are wanting to go.  That doesn't mean you cannot move back in time for your second rifle.

Offline Dennis Glazener

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19484
    • GillespieRifles
Re: Pathfinding:
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2019, 04:20:45 PM »
Bill Ivey's book on NC rifles has a host of rifles that fit the description you give. There are rifles from the late 1700's up to the mid 1800's. Western NC rifles are usually pretty plain "every man's" rifles and to me seem to fit me the better than the deep cresent butt plates of many east TN rifles. Bill's book is in full color and well worth buying if you like southern rifles.The problem is I think it is out of print.
Dennis
"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9920
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: Pathfinding:
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2019, 05:05:10 PM »
It would be stretching it a lot.  That type of gun simply did not exist 1760-70.  I won't discourage you from making a Tennessee rifle, it's a good way to get shooting and start learning, but you have a LOT of research ahead of you to get you to 1760's.   ;)
« Last Edit: Today at 06:49:21 AM by Stophel »

Fair enough point, I guess what I’m seeking is essentially THE era that a rifle similar to what I described as well as posing this question, what should I be studying as far as the “school” or “style” of utilitarian, Everyman Rifle? I’m not locked into replicating a tool from a specific flint rifle period as much I’m interested in recreating one that would be true to whatever style of rifle that closely matches the boxes I’ve checked in my head as far as what I’d like that rifle to be. The SMR, “barn” or “hog” rifle seems to fill some of the bill but would a rifle like that have a swamped barrel? I know that many were actually smooth bores.

There are some things you need to remember.  First, from 1760 to 1800-1820 there was a huge change in how rifles were decorated, in the buttplates and trigger guards and general stock profile.  For example, in the 1760s quality wood work was invariably carved in some manner. Gunstocks were no exception. Now I am sure that there were likely some plain gunstocks made but I would think the were in the minority. It simply was not done this way. By the 1770s carving on furniture and gunstocks started to disappear in Eurpope. But in America carved gunstocks remained the norm until 1820 or so and longer with some makers. Iron mountings were common in England but less common here from surviving rifles. While there is a current fad to make iron mounted Kentuckys I don't think they were that common in the areas making rifles in America in 1760. If they were common there would be more survivors I would think.
If you want an example of the 1770 working rifle look to the "Haymaker" rifle. Then look at its history.. You must remember that carved and engraved rifles were not wall hangers. They were used. You also need to under stand that in many areas rifle matches were nearly the only form of recreation.  Then think about young men today with a tricked out diesel pickup or a fast car....  There are many factors that influence rifle making in different areas. Religion is one. Some austere Christian sects thought that fancy possessions were sinful.  In some areas South of the Ohio and along the West side of the mountains often the economy was very poor compared to places in PA for example and people simply could not afford the typical Lancaster rifle of the same time period. A young man who worked hard and saved could afford a nice rifle if he wanted, look to the story of Davy Crockett after he ran away from home. So you might need to think the "everyman's rifle" thing over and look at the context of the times and the way things were done in a given period. 

I might add that we are at a disadvantage in that there is little in the way of details of rifles written at the time. We do know that even the British military rifles of the Rev-War period, the 1776 pattern for example, had a raised panel or carving around the tang. Its the way things were done. The German rifles of the time had more carving and the German trained gunsmiths that came to America brought that with them and it hung on it seems until the 1840s with some makers.
Also rifles over 54 caliber and under 44 caliber are rare in flintlock and apparently rifles under 50 caliber were not uncommon even in 1775. This from reading the account of John Joseph Henry losing his rifle in a stream crossing while enroute to Quebec in 1775. But rifles under 40 caliber would have been very uncommon I would think in the 1750-1780  time frame.  We also have complaints by traders trying to get rifle trading to the Natives stopped since they used less powder and lead and of course reduced their sales. This complaint dates to the 1750s at least. The other problem is that the powder available in the mid 18th c might not work very well in small bore rifles IMO. The graph is just what I found some years ago out of curiosity. Its difficult to get a truely accurate idea of teh original bore sizesince some rifles were freshed, others bored for shot at later dates. And I have found the same rifle in different books with different calibers listed.  Some who measure don't seem to under stand the slight funneling at the muzzle found on many old rifles.  So...
If you want an easrly rifle to hunt squirrels make a Haymaker inspired rifle with an a weight 40 caliber barrel. Having hunting these critters in my youth with 32-36-40 cals I know that they all require head shots or "barking"....
Dan


upload image
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Long John

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1618
  • Give me Liberty or give me Death
Re: Pathfinding:
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2019, 05:39:51 PM »
Wingshot

Welcome to ALR!

I wouldn't build a 32 caliber rifle but you are free to if you so desire.  I wouldn't build another 40 either.  In many states there are caliber restrictions in the game laws and a 40 would not be legal for squirrels, rabbits and other little critters in many of the northeastern states.

If you pine for an American longrifle then I have to agree with Smartdog.  But, my squirrel rifle is a Bucks County gun styled from the 1780s to 1790s (RCA 65) in 36 caliber.  A Bucks County or Lehigh County style gun could have been made in a small bore, although I doubt 32 caliber.  Look at RCA 58, 60 and 65.  All could be done in a small bore with a swamped barrel and minimal carving.  Remember that in the 18th century virtually NOTHING was thrown away.  A rifle barrel and lock would be reused to make a new gun if the original stock had become severely damaged.  The guns we have to study have endured 200 or more years of use and repair.

I would also challenge the notion that here were no small bore guns in use in the 18th century.  I remember seeing in the Tojus Museet, in Copenhagen, small bore rifles of Swiss, German and Austrian origin that have the outward appearance of what we generally think of as a jaeger-type rifle.  None have survived use here in America as far as I know but that does not mean that they did not exist in America.  They might have been used until worn-out and then recycled, the barrel becoming barn door hinges.

I hope this helps.

Best Regards,

JMC
John Cholin

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19523
Re: Pathfinding:
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2019, 06:15:39 PM »
Wingshot, welcome. Glad to meet another guy interested in early rifles. Is it the time period or the guns that interest you on the 1760-1770 period?  I just don’t think plinking or squirrel hunting were big right then and that’s why we do not see small calibers from that era. An early fowling piece is an option but might feel like cheating to you on squirrels. Lots of choices in fowlers and trade guns from that era.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Scota4570

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2393
Re: Pathfinding:
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2019, 06:39:44 PM »
You mentioned "Tennessee" and "iron furniture".  IF that styling will work for you can not do much better than:

https://kiblerslongrifles.com/

You can get a 32, 36, 40, and 45.  I have assembled two.  They require only slight fitting and shaping.  The parts are top quality.  These are light slender rifles that carry and balance great, especially the 45. 

IF you have limited or no experience,  assembling and finishing one of these will help a bunch when to scratch build later.   There is a lot of planning and unforeseen challenges when you start out.  This will give you a good grounding on design and finishing.  When you are done you will have a terrific rifle. 

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12671
Re: Pathfinding:
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2019, 07:10:09 PM »
Dan: that is a well done and comprehensive chart.  It says a lot.  I'm saving it for my files.  thanks.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline kudu

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 218
Re: Pathfinding:
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2019, 07:37:49 PM »
I understand what you might want- might not be exactly period correct ,  But if you really want what you want thats ok.
I built all my Guns and they are shooters made the way I want them.
For instance I built a .50 cal flint lock half stock. with a Rice hand lapped straight barrel 38" a Manton Lock. Fixed custom sights I made. ramrod thimbles custom also, soldered to barrel. a lehman butt plate and Davis set triggers. I Balanced it to fit me, Im tall with a long neck and Face.
I wouldnt trade it for nothing and get alot of" That's Nice comments". it shoots that well.

Offline Wingshot

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 229
  • Brand new NMLRA member
Re: Pathfinding:
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2019, 07:39:11 PM »
I have to say that I’m blown away with the feedback received thus far! A LOT to think about and consider on my end to be sure. I would like to clarify a couple things if I may. First, as I said I’m not locked into a persona or specific time period, I desire a smal caliber hunting/shooting rifle that will be put to work specifically to those ends. I’ve been a shooter/hunter all my life (58 years old) and have owned and shot flintlocks since age 12. I’ve had longrifles, plains guns and even a custom built Tulle and have taken large and small game with all. My apptitude for wood and metal work is at what I believe to be at an acceptable level and in the past I’ve built self wood bows, primitive arrow, Knapped points, etc. the “Haymaker” is something I’m going to have to start researching heavily as it sounds like a profile that checks all my boxes. Thanks again to everyone for the warm welcome and I look forward to reading more feedback!

Flycaster1977

  • Guest
Re: Pathfinding:
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2019, 11:09:59 PM »
My $.02. Your gonna build it and your gonna hunt with it. If it takes an iron mounted tennessee in .32 to keep u interested, by all means go for it. If your worried more about time periods and authenticity, then it may be that your looking into the wrong combination. 

A gunmaker in the 1760’s had all the works that came before him to build off of and he took those ideas and adapted them, added in his own ideas, and made his own rifle. . As a modern gunbuilder, you have hundreds of years of influence to draw from. Add them to your personal likes and ideas and build your own piece.

I guess what im saying is, if you build period correct are you gonna be disappointed every time you go out to hunt, or are you gonna be saying to yourself. “ this is ok, but ....”?  Whereas, if u build the rifle you want, will u love every minute you have it in your hands?
« Last Edit: March 15, 2019, 11:14:00 PM by Flycaster1977 »

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15826
Re: Pathfinding:
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2019, 08:58:11 PM »
Long John Cholin makes some very pertinent points about the point of law as pertaining to calibres. This is a must, in my opinion.  If you make it and it is illegal to use for what you want, what then? Sell it and make another?
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Wingshot

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 229
  • Brand new NMLRA member
Re: Pathfinding:
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2019, 11:14:01 PM »
PA law states .45 and up for large game. Small game allows smaller calibers.

Offline moleeyes36

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1443
Re: Pathfinding:
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2019, 12:46:14 AM »
Bill Ivey's book on NC rifles has a host of rifles that fit the description you give. There are rifles from the late 1700's up to the mid 1800's. Western NC rifles are usually pretty plain "every man's" rifles and to me seem to fit me the better than the deep cresent butt plates of many east TN rifles. Bill's book is in full color and well worth buying if you like southern rifles.The problem is I think it is out of print.
Dennis


Wingshot,

I heartily second Dennis' recommendation of Bill Ivey's book.  I bought mine directly from Bill Ivey a few years ago and I don't know if it's out of print or not.  However, it appears there may be a few available if you look for them. https://www.amazon.com/North-Carolina-Schools-Longrifles-1765-1865/dp/B005GP9XRA

Mole Eyes
Don Richards
NMLRA Field Rep, Instructor, Field Range Officer
NRA Chief Range Safety Officer

Offline Wingshot

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 229
  • Brand new NMLRA member
Re: Pathfinding:
« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2019, 12:58:39 AM »
Moleeys36, thanks! I’ll see if I can snag a copy.

Offline Darkhorse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1665
Re: Pathfinding:
« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2019, 01:17:28 AM »
I built this to be my small game, paper, and turkey rifle. It has a swamped .40 caliber Rice barrel. I was trying to match my .54 as close as possible and in the hand it feels real close. I did a lot of looking, then a lot of research before I finally decided on what I really wanted and needed.
I didn't care at all about historical accuracy. I just wanted the rifle I was seeing in my mind, the one I'd be happy with.  And that's what I got. I think it's best described as a Lancaster pattern.



« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 01:21:06 AM by Darkhorse »
American horses of Arabian descent.

Offline Joe Schell

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 208
Re: Pathfinding:
« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2019, 01:44:03 AM »
there was an add in the January 1776 Virginia Gazette for a stolen rifle, it reads "a rifle gun, her stock made of persimmon tree, iron mounted , has a pistol lock , the box lid lost , and the bore very small "

This is a rifle i built back a while that could date to the 18th century if it were built with a flatter butt plate. It has a Chambers pistol lock and an a wt swamped 36 cal barrel

 


Offline Wingshot

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 229
  • Brand new NMLRA member
Re: Pathfinding:
« Reply #20 on: March 17, 2019, 02:51:58 AM »
I built this to be my small game, paper, and turkey rifle. It has a swamped .40 caliber Rice barrel. I was trying to match my .54 as close as possible and in the hand it feels real close. I did a lot of looking, then a lot of research before I finally decided on what I really wanted and needed.
I didn't care at all about historical accuracy. I just wanted the rifle I was seeing in my mind, the one I'd be happy with.  And that's what I got. I think it's best described as a Lancaster pattern.




Beautiful rifles! I’ll be gawking at them all evening!

Offline Wingshot

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 229
  • Brand new NMLRA member
Re: Pathfinding:
« Reply #21 on: March 17, 2019, 02:53:33 AM »
That was meant for both Darkhorse and Joe’s rifles. Gorgeous.

Offline BOB HILL

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2281
Re: Pathfinding:
« Reply #22 on: March 17, 2019, 02:56:05 AM »
Wing shot, I just talked to Mr. Ivey. He still has some copies of his book. It is a great book as everyone has stated. If any of you are looking for a copy. Give him a call. He said I could post his number—336-625-3314. Hope this helps.
Bob
South Carolina Lowcountry

Offline Dennis Glazener

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19484
    • GillespieRifles
Re: Pathfinding:
« Reply #23 on: March 17, 2019, 02:58:09 AM »
PA law states .45 and up for large game. Small game allows smaller calibers.

I was told by a resident of NJ that a 40 was legal for targets only. He said 45 or larger for deer and 36 or smaller for squirrels and other small game.That was several years ago when I had a spec 40 cal for sale for sale (he did finally buy the rifle though)!
Dennis
"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

Offline Wingshot

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 229
  • Brand new NMLRA member
Re: Pathfinding:
« Reply #24 on: March 17, 2019, 03:48:48 AM »
Wing shot, I just talked to Mr. Ivey. He still has some copies of his book. It is a great book as everyone has stated. If any of you are looking for a copy. Give him a call. He said I could post his number—336-625-3314. Hope this helps.
Bob

Bob, thank you very much! I will be giving him a call.