Lock Choice

[Bill Raby]

I just started building another rifle, series of You Tube videos of it coming soon,  so it is time to start gathering up the parts for the next one. I have a 29 inch long 4 bore barrel that is 1 3/4 inches at the breech. Plan is to build an English sporting rifle loosely based on the Purdey plans from Track of the Wolf. But that idea is not set in stone. My thinking is that a Brown Bess or Twigg lock would be good since they are about the largest ones you can get. But they would be very outdated for this period of rifle. The Late English lock by L&R would be my first choice, but this barrel is enormous. Worried that it might look a bit too small.

Idea is to come up with something that would would have been used for an elephant hunt in early to mid 19th century. I don't get obsessed with being historically correct but I would prefer to stick with history as much as possible. From what I have been able to find so far, most of the early elephant guns were large sawed off fowling guns and it was not until about 1840 that the 4 bore rifles rifles meant for elephant hunting started to be made. Most of them were build with percussion locks but flintlocks were made right up until the cartridges came out. Have to go with flintlock on this one just because I like it a lot better than percussion.

Any advice or suggestions would be welcome. And there will be a series of You Tube videos of building this one also.

[Wingshot]

Although I don’t have anything in the way of advice for your lock choice I do enjoy your videos! Monday mornings are the best now since I know there’s an update coming. I was curious what you’re going to with the TN rifle when it’s completed, will you offer it for sale here? Thanks again for your terrific video series. They’re the best.

[Eric Kettenburg]

I think if you're careful in layout and design you should be able to use a standard sized lock.  I've seen some of the later percussion pieces and while they are of course a bit chunkier through the breech I don't ever recall them using larger-sized locks.  Obviously there's a trade-off and you'll have to juggle lock panel width, lock size, breech width etc.  Also with modern barrel steels you may be able to get away with a slightly smaller breech than would have been typical 200 years ago, perhaps not dramatically smaller but just enough to help balance things out.  Also given that a 4 bore is really intended for shooting something that could otherwise very quickly kill you or squish you or mangle you, I would want the fastest and most reliable lock on this planet!  I think a Chambers late Ketland would work very well, as they are fast, reliable, and a good size; I have seen, handled and owned a number of similar English locks that are considerably smaller, so I actually think that this particular lock (on the average for the style) may be slightly on the larger size of average.  I'd figure out how to make it work in an aesthetically pleasing way and then rest confident that the sucker was going to go off when I wanted it to do so, and quickly!

[Mike Brooks]

You'll want to step the breech in too.

[smart dog]

Hi Bill,
Given the stock profile you chose, you are locked into the late flint era.  Consequently, your lock choices are pretty limited and the readily available choices are mediocre but can be improved.  In my discussions of early to mid-18th century British sporting guns, I stress the fact that the flats around the lock are very thin and often almost disappear. That is especially true with large early round-faced locks like Chambers English lock.  During the latter half of the century, flat lock plates dominated and round-faced locks were relegated to military, livery, and some trade guns.  The flat plates were a little smaller than the round-faced locks such that the width of the flat surrounding them grew a little. Near the end of the 1700s, locks became smaller because the "short throw" design was faster and with roller frizzens could produce reliable sparks and fast ignition.  As the lock plates were reduced in size, the flats surrounding them grew wider.  During the late flint era, it was not uncommon to mate big bore barrels with locks much smaller than 50 years previously.  I apologize for this long intro but it describes the historical context for what I believe you are trying to do.  Now to your available choices.  A British big-bore big game rifle was not a poor boy product.  It was for wealthy adventurers.  It usually was not fancy in styling, although it would have fine engraving, but it was virtual perfection in construction and function.  The Rifle Shoppe has a few good options.  Their late flint locks for single barreled guns are appropriate.  As far as commercially made locks you have only 2 legitimate choices, the Davis and L&R late English flintlocks.  The Chambers late Ketland, L&R Durs Eggs, and Davis "Twigg" locks are too early.  The Davis and L&R locks may work but they need modifications.  I am not a fan of the L&R late English lock, which I have experience with. When I had to choose a lock for a late flint English rifle, I went with Davis' lock but it needed a lot of work, which I described in the thread below:
  http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=53413.0


A key feature on both locks is making sure the tab on the mainspring that notches into the bolster is sufficiently long such that the upper leaf of the spring clears a large barrel. You may need to make a mainspring that works in those locks and for your project. With some work, the Davis lock can be turned into something approximating the quality of a lock expected on a British late flint big game rifle. However, note that the lock does not have a forward lug and hook to replace the forward lock screw.  I found that the lock is just too short to make that work.  If I use it again, I will weld metal to the front and make it longer.

dave

[Bill Raby]

Photo is picture of the barrel with a large Siler lock on it. Only loose lock I have on hand right now. A late English lock is pretty close to the same size. Looks small but I guess it could work. Its pretty hard finding much info on this type of gun. There is a lot more out there on the 4 bore cartridge guns. Not so much on the muzzle loaders. Seems like they were quite rare in any form. One source I came across says that it was less than 100 build in the entire 19th century. Hard to imagine that is accurate.

Main spring hitting should not be much of an issue. This Siler lock has the spring touching the barrel in the position in the photo. It is sitting a bit low on the barrel, but it would work in that position. Barrel came with a patent breech that is VERY thick where it touches the lock. Not a problem to mill out a notch to fit the main spring.

I agree that it would not be a poor man gun. An African hunting trip would typically last 6 months to several years and quite expensive. The guy that bought one would be paying big money and expect something done right. Lots of decoration would be a bit silly. But every original I have seen so far has rather nice engraving. No question this will be a very challenging build. I think English walnut is the only possible choice for the stock. That stuff is expensive!!! I am really tempted to blow $1500 to $2000 on some amazing blank. But that just seems like a bad idea. Never see that on the originals. The amount of recoil this thing will have calls for plain straight grain only. Probably bed the breech anyway.

Wingshot - I finished the Tennessee rifle about 2 weeks ago. I just finished all the editing. I will be putting a new video up every three days or so until it is done. It goes up to #40. When I got all the videos posted I will have Track of the Wolf put it up for sale. I figure they know the market for these a lot better than I do. I am already started on building an Isaac Haines Lancaster rifle. Just getting started on inletting the barrel now. I am doing video and will start putting those up when the Tennessee rifle videos are finished. The 4 bore comes after that.

[JV Puleo]

Here is a real one...
I took this photo several years ago. The rifle belongs to a friend in the UK and has Irish registration marks. The lock is marked W. Ketland so it must date from after 1801. I'd give it a rough date of 1801-1810. If I remember correctly, it is about a 4-bore. Exactly what it was used for is a mystery. At the time it was made, Britain did not have any African colonies so it is more likely it was made for hunting in India though I'm not sure Indian Elephants were hunted. Perhaps it was for shooting from a howda? There is no question it is a sporting rifle of some sort and that the original owner was into that sort of hunting because there is another huge rifle with the next consecutive registration number and both came from the same Irish estate.

Well...I tried adding the image. This &*)( thing doesn't seem to be working or it is another system so perversely  complicated that it isn't worth the time messing with.

[AsMs]

Bill,

Put it up for sale here.  Save the commission for yourself.  I am sure you would sell it here quickly.  Also looming forward to your next builds.  I have  learned a few of your tricks and plan to put them to use.

AsMs

[hen]

On a late English lock the 'curl' behind the top jaw screw should normally curl backwards, not forwards, particularly where a fully rainproof pan is used, as on SmartDog's lock.

[smart dog]

Hi Hen,
Good observation particularly for locks after 1820 or so.  Unfortunately, to change the Davis lock requires some welding.  I opted not to do that but would be tempted if I ever use the lock again.  I might also swap out the flint cock if I use it again. The L&R lock has the spur in the right direction but it has other more critical problems to correct.

dave

[Bob Roller]

This lock has real potential but not as now made.Ron Long offered this years ago and I did
make a few of them from external parts I bought from him.I do remember he told me to get
a couple of extra frizzen springs because being as thin as they are,there could and did break.
The mechanism I made then for this lock is the same one I made for the L&R small Manton
and Durs Egg.I was going to revive this lock about the same time as I did the work with the
bigger Twigg from Davis but the parts were in short supply and they needed what they had
for their own orders and I forgot about it and started using the L&R parts which so far have
worked well if lack of complaints is any indication.

Bob Roller