Author Topic: Morphy's 4/19 - very interesting William Henry rifle  (Read 3029 times)

Offline Eric Kettenburg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4033
    • Eric Kettenburg
Morphy's 4/19 - very interesting William Henry rifle
« on: March 21, 2019, 01:39:03 AM »
I find this rifle to be extremely interesting!  I can't believe they did not post a photo of the signature.

https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/_A__FULLSTOCK_FLINTLOCK_KENTUCKY_RIFLE_SIGNED__W__-LOT461777.aspx 

Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline spgordon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1284
Re: Morphy's 4/19 - very interesting William Henry rifle
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2019, 02:07:32 AM »
When I saw this, I was hoping to see the signature, too!
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
https://www.moravianhistory.org/product-page/moravian-activity-in-the-mid-atlantic-guidebook

Offline Eric Kettenburg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4033
    • Eric Kettenburg
Re: Morphy's 4/19 - very interesting William Henry rifle
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2019, 02:23:04 AM »
I find the box to be especially fascinating:  it's quite accomplished, well-designed and decorated, and it also is fairly reminiscent of the common form seen in contemporary work of the area (Molls, Rupps etc.) while being a somewhat more elaborate version.  I really find it to be an exceptional box.
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline BOB HILL

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2232
Re: Morphy's 4/19 - very interesting William Henry rifle
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2019, 03:12:59 AM »
Elegant. Thanks for posting this.
Bob
South Carolina Lowcountry

Offline Eric Kettenburg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4033
    • Eric Kettenburg
Re: Morphy's 4/19 - very interesting William Henry rifle
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2019, 01:53:32 PM »
Scott if I am reading your research correctly, a rough timeline would go:

1771-1776 in Lititz as apprentice to Albrecht
August 1776 to 1780 - at Christian's Spring, moved to Nazareth 1780
By @ 1781 - had house/shop built in Nazareth for gunstocking work
Took younger brother as apprentice in 1781

Between 1781 and 1792, at some point not determined, seems to go from gunstocking to primarily joiners work and has apprentices in joiners work by 1792

Takes on an apprentice in joiners work in 1797

1798 accepts contract from state for 2000 guns, builds factory at Jacobsburg which is complete and operational by spring of 1799.

According to your writing, however, it appears there is evidence to support the idea that the Jacobsburg factory was solely for completing the state contract, at which point it was then converted to a grist mill.  Meanwhile, he maintained a shop in Nazareth and may have expanded on it in 1800.  He had various apprentices and other workmen employed or training under him there on a smaller scale until 1808, at which point he accepted another huge contract for arms.

So where to place this rifle in time and space?  Well assuming it is indeed a William Henry rifle (no reason to doubt this, just can't believe they didn't photograph the signature!) I would proffer that it was likely made in Nazareth sometime between the two large arms contracts.  The furnishings used here are a very well developed Northampton/Lehigh style of a later generation form - they are not the earlier style seen on the earliest Moll rifles or the dated Rupp pieces.  The triggerguard in particular I would have a hard time accepting as pre-dating @ 1800 largely due to the way it's designed and filed.  Also, assuming that the artificial striping is original to the rifle, I definitely do not see it as becoming popularly used in this region until the early 19th century.

As a random thought, this rifle is very well designed and accomplished but is at the same time fairly plain and utilitarian.  The cheek star and the fantastic box are really the standout work here, but the lack of any carving and the 'quick' application of the fake striping and simple red varnish imply to me almost something of a - dare I say? - factory product!  I find this line of thought interesting also because we're talking about a guy who clearly operated at various points with something of a factory mindset in order to complete the contracts.  I wonder if what we have here is a rifle largely stocked and completed by apprentices or employed workmen and marked with the name of the "brand" as something of a commercial product, in other words not the more romanticized idea of a lone craftsman turning out unique pieces?

Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline spgordon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1284
Re: Morphy's 4/19 - very interesting William Henry rifle
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2019, 02:05:52 PM »
Eric--great post. Yes, I think you've got the timeline correct, except that I think we can know that WH of Naz continues as a gunstocker until his younger brother returns to Lancaster in 1787: it is the following decade (1787-97) that he works almost exclusively as a joiner--not because he wanted to but because the community required him to.

I don't see any reason to question your argument that WH of Naz made this in Naz between 1800 and 1808, if I'm understanding you correctly?

I don't really know when WH of Naz stopped working as a gunsmith, but I would guess around 1815. He was ill and moved to Philadelphia shortly after that.
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
https://www.moravianhistory.org/product-page/moravian-activity-in-the-mid-atlantic-guidebook

Offline Eric Kettenburg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4033
    • Eric Kettenburg
Re: Morphy's 4/19 - very interesting William Henry rifle
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2019, 02:18:47 PM »
Hopefully I was making my case clearly without too much confusion.  Yes, I was not clear as to when he may have switched over largely to joiner work but I figured he had to have been putting in at least the early years of the 1780s as a gunstocker - thanks for supplying the info about his brother in 1787 as it helps to clarify that.  The way I see it in a nutshell is that I think details of this gun are too late to be a product of the 1780s, and very probably the 1790s as well.  I think the most apt location for it in time would be the first decade of the 19th century, but as I mentioned, for some reason it does strike me as having something of a "factory" feel to it, although admittedly this is just my gut impression talking.

I'm going to try to contact Morphy's to see if they have a photo of the barrel marking or if they'd be willing to take one.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2019, 05:05:47 PM by Eric Kettenburg »
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 18914
Re: Morphy's 4/19 - very interesting William Henry rifle
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2019, 03:51:16 PM »
A lovely elegant, simple rifle.  Great sideplate too.  The pictures for this auction are “different”.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Longknife

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2049
Re: Morphy's 4/19 - very interesting William Henry rifle
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2019, 04:05:31 PM »
Nice, rifle, Not nit-picking but I like to study the original to see if any "mistakes" that I usually make are present. What I find interesting on this piece is that the fence of the pan is actually behind the end of the barrel and  the touch hole is so far foreward that the pan had to be enlarged. That wouldn't get you a ribbon at Dixons!!!!...Ed

P.S. I haven't made this mistake,,,,YET?
« Last Edit: March 21, 2019, 04:19:27 PM by Longknife »
Ed Hamberg

Offline Eric Kettenburg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4033
    • Eric Kettenburg
Re: Morphy's 4/19 - very interesting William Henry rifle
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2019, 05:07:40 PM »
Well, not sure whether we should discuss the lock or not...   8)

Look at the upper edge of the lock panel, look at where the pan is sitting relative to the barrel as you noted, look at the side plate and forward lock bolt hole...

But then, they say its original flint, and/or no mention of a replacement, sooooooooooo  :o
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline Longknife

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2049
Re: Morphy's 4/19 - very interesting William Henry rifle
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2019, 06:58:42 PM »
Well, not sure whether we should discuss the lock or not...   8)

Look at the upper edge of the lock panel, look at where the pan is sitting relative to the barrel as you noted, look at the side plate and forward lock bolt hole...

But then, they say its original flint, and/or no mention of a replacement, sooooooooooo  :o

Eric, I really don't know why we shouldn't discuss this rifle and or lock. I agree it was probably original flint but is that the original lock? I see the other features you pointed out and i have drawn my own conclusion, which as you might guess is different than the auction house opinion!!!!! :-X
« Last Edit: March 21, 2019, 07:02:36 PM by Longknife »
Ed Hamberg

Offline E.vonAschwege

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3118
    • von Aschwege Flintlocks
Re: Morphy's 4/19 - very interesting William Henry rifle
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2019, 07:08:02 PM »
Well, not sure whether we should discuss the lock or not...   8)

Look at the upper edge of the lock panel, look at where the pan is sitting relative to the barrel as you noted, look at the side plate and forward lock bolt hole...

But then, they say its original flint, and/or no mention of a replacement, sooooooooooo  :o

I love the patchbox on this gun myself, and otherwise it's a very clean piece with great lines.  The lock instantly threw me for the exact reasons you state - and I don't think it takes too keen of an eye to notice those discrepancies.  I'd love to see what the mortise looks like beneath the lock plate. 

I know it's a fine line to walk, nitpicking original pieces that may hold significant value or represent an investment to their private owners.  I however have no personal issues discussing items at retail, auction, or otherwise public sale.  Items for sale should be able to stand up to scrutiny.  It's not "bashing" the piece, it's discussing the changes that may have happened during it's use, or restoration more recently. 
Former Gunsmith, Colonial Williamsburg www.vonaschwegeflintlocks.com

Offline Brent English

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 279
    • Robust Wood Lathes
Re: Morphy's 4/19 - very interesting William Henry rifle
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2019, 10:26:31 PM »
I agree with the auction house, the lock is an original flintlock, it's just not original to that rifle.  Look at the wood erosion behind the breech plug on the lock side.  That's the kind of thing that happens with percussion caps, methinks. Nice rifle, just has a non-original original flintlock-lock in it.  I wouldn't be opposed to owning it, but I'd only want to pay an appropriate price.
Done right is better than done fast.

Offline Eric Kettenburg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4033
    • Eric Kettenburg
Re: Morphy's 4/19 - very interesting William Henry rifle
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2019, 11:16:31 PM »
Well, I kind of think it *might* have been percussion at one time also, however that's something that - short a really blatant reconversion - might better warrant an in-hand inspection.  I've seen flint guns with one heck of a lot of erosion around the breech area also; a lot depends upon who was using it and how they were using it.  Good candidate for a piece that desperately needs the lock yanked for a really good look-see.

Aren't these auction houses supposed to have experts on salary for this stuff?
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 18914
Re: Morphy's 4/19 - very interesting William Henry rifle
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2019, 11:24:19 PM »
Auction houses have a conflict of interest. Sells for more; they make more. Consultants who emphasize every flaw probably don’t get much business. This is normal. Caveat emptor. Many collectors want a piece of history. I think builders are more intense in their scrutiny because they have eyes of experience.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Eric Kettenburg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4033
    • Eric Kettenburg
Re: Morphy's 4/19 - very interesting William Henry rifle
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2019, 11:37:03 PM »
I understand that but at the same time, I don't think it really has anything to do with being a builder (speaking for myself).  I know many, many collectors who are not builders and who are exceptionally knowledgeable.  I've been discussing this with a good friend who has a great eye and he also picked this issue out immediately.  Why would an auction house want to risk selling the piece only to have it returned due to misrepresentation?  I understand that the descriptions are typically deliberately vague, but at the same time, it's a fine line between being vague and misrepresenting something, especially when in the same catalog an auction house will typically 'introduce' and make fanfare of the bona fides of their staff!
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline spgordon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1284
Re: Morphy's 4/19 - very interesting William Henry rifle
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2019, 12:12:47 AM »
The information about Henry and (much more so) about Albrecht on the other rifle have a lot of errors of fact. Henry did not apprentice with Andreas Albrecht at Christian Springs, for instance. And Albrecht did not come to America in 1749; he did not take over the Christian's Spring gunshop from 1750 to 1759; and he did not alternate locations between Bethlehem and Christian's Spring until 1766.

Albrecht came to America in 1750; he moved to Christian's Spring in 1759; and he never returned to Bethlehem until he took over the Sun Tavern in 1766. Henry apprenticed under him in Lititz from 1771-1776.

These things aren't as important as the description of the rifle itself that you all are talking about--but they are things that it is easy to get right and so they make me wonder about the reliability of whomever is writing these descriptions.
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
https://www.moravianhistory.org/product-page/moravian-activity-in-the-mid-atlantic-guidebook

Online Seth Isaacson

  • Library_mod
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1004
    • Black Powder Historian
Re: Morphy's 4/19 - very interesting William Henry rifle
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2019, 12:26:58 AM »
These things aren't as important as the description of the rifle itself that you all are talking about--but they are things that it is easy to get right and so they make me wonder about the reliability of whomever is writing these descriptions.

Most likely they just relied on an outdated secondary source for those details. It happens all the time. Too bad though. Only select specialized collectors and researchers are really able to keep up on all the specific details of various gunmakers, and we all know many of the "great writers" on antique firearms got a lot wrong but their word was passed around as absolute fact for a long time.
I am the Lead Historian and a Firearms Specialist at Rock Island Auction Co., but I am here out of my own personal interests in muzzle loading and history.
*All opinions expressed are mine alone and are NOT meant to represent those of any other entity unless otherwise expressly stated.*

Offline spgordon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1284
Re: Morphy's 4/19 - very interesting William Henry rifle
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2019, 01:13:32 AM »
Most likely they just relied on an outdated secondary source for those details.

Maybe. But I know most of those outdated secondary sources and I fear these are relatively new mis-statements--more the result of sloppiness than research in old secondary sources.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2019, 01:34:23 AM by spgordon »
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
https://www.moravianhistory.org/product-page/moravian-activity-in-the-mid-atlantic-guidebook

Offline Eric Kettenburg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4033
    • Eric Kettenburg
Re: Morphy's 4/19 - very interesting William Henry rifle
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2019, 01:36:39 AM »
I agree.  Is a quick google search too much to ask?!!!
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline Longknife

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2049
Re: Morphy's 4/19 - very interesting William Henry rifle
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2019, 04:00:23 PM »





Ed Hamberg

Offline Eric Kettenburg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4033
    • Eric Kettenburg
Re: Morphy's 4/19 - very interesting William Henry rifle
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2019, 04:11:19 PM »
Well.  At first glance up close, that sure does look as though a reconversion was accomplished with the area built up somewhat with welding deposit and re-rusted.  I kind of feel that I can see a semi-circular shadow of a bushing, possibly, although it could just be a shadow.  Photos are always tough although these are quite clear, but admittedly photos can be deceiving as compared to viewing something first hand.  I guess on this one, I'd say larger photos sure aren't helping bolster the catalog description!!!
« Last Edit: March 22, 2019, 04:15:29 PM by Eric Kettenburg »
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Online Seth Isaacson

  • Library_mod
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1004
    • Black Powder Historian
Re: Morphy's 4/19 - very interesting William Henry rifle
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2019, 04:13:34 PM »
Most likely they just relied on an outdated secondary source for those details.

Maybe. But I know most of those outdated secondary sources and I fear these are relatively new mis-statements--more the result of sloppiness than research in old secondary sources.

I agree.  Is a quick google search too much to ask?!!!

Fair enough!
I am the Lead Historian and a Firearms Specialist at Rock Island Auction Co., but I am here out of my own personal interests in muzzle loading and history.
*All opinions expressed are mine alone and are NOT meant to represent those of any other entity unless otherwise expressly stated.*

Offline E.vonAschwege

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3118
    • von Aschwege Flintlocks
Re: Morphy's 4/19 - very interesting William Henry rifle
« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2019, 05:24:15 PM »
Seeing the close-up images on Morphy's site, I'm convinced this is not only a replacement lock, but a reconversion from percussion as well.  There are too many inconsistencies in the patina and coloration - the bits don't add up.  Pitting like that can happen with extensive use and poor maintenance, but most often we see that in barrels that were used as percussion guns.  This has the appearance (again, can't say for certain without handling it) of being welded up, note file marks on top of coarse pitting, and then a new lock put in.  The bright area where the pan has been dished out to clear the TH looks like it was done "recently" with a file, again no heavy rust as on the rest of it. 

To stir the pot a bit more....

I noticed this gap on the lower finial of the box, and wondered if this is a box made to cover an existing mortise? Ordinarily I would say it's just wear or sloppy fit, but the mortise has a sharp angle at the bottom, and a broad sweep to the left, and the box just doesn't fit.  If this was sloppy inletting, it would still roughly follow the outline of the box.  Am I seeing things or a trick of the lighting? 



Former Gunsmith, Colonial Williamsburg www.vonaschwegeflintlocks.com

Offline Jim Kibler

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4296
    • Personal Website
Re: Morphy's 4/19 - very interesting William Henry rifle
« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2019, 08:01:09 PM »
The box is fantastic.  Especially, of course, the engraving.  The cheek inlay wasn't engraved by the same hand.  I wonder if Kuntz engraved the box but at least some, or maybe the rest of it, was done by others?  The engraving has the feel of Kuntz work to me.  Extraordinarily well done.