Tung oil question

[tiswell]

I am nearing completion of a Kibler Colonial kit. I plan to use tung oil as the finish. The Sunderland Welles website when describing their Original formula Polymerized Tung Oil  as used on gunstocks has this to say "gunstocks are rarely heavily exposed to the elements and never remain outside exposed to the weather, which causes a finish to deteriorate".

   I do a bit of living history and our guns do get soaked for days at a time with rain or an unplanned bath in a river. Does anyone have experience with a specific Tung oil finish that can hold up in the elements? S-W has an exterior polymerized oil that requires a sealer first. Both finishes are going to cost close to $90 for a quart of each.  I will spend the money if that is the best way to go, but would appreciate any first hand knowledge.

                                                                                                                                      Thanks, Bill

[Lzymtlsmth]

I am nearing completion of a Kibler Colonial kit. I plan to use tung oil as the finish. The Sunderland Welles website when describing their Original formula Polymerized Tung Oil  as used on gunstocks has this to say "gunstocks are rarely heavily exposed to the elements and never remain outside exposed to the weather, which causes a finish to deteriorate".

   I do a bit of living history and our guns do get soaked for days at a time with rain or an unplanned bath in a river. Does anyone have experience with a specific Tung oil finish that can hold up in the elements? S-W has an exterior polymerized oil that requires a sealer first. Both finishes are going to cost close to $90 for a quart of each.  I will spend the money if that is the best way to go, but would appreciate any first hand knowledge.

                                                                                                                                      Thanks, Bill

I used it for a while after my divorce from boiled linseed oil. The linseed up here in humidity rich NW Ohio doesn’t completely dry for a long time and wash’s off in any rain at all. Tung oil dries better but the results are about the same in rain . However I’m not familiar with the tung that uses a sealer first. I used the furniture tung oil.I like the Permalyn sealer the best. It holds up well.

[WadePatton]

Don't hang your hat on just one finishing oil.  I was "sold" on tung oil at one time, but changed my mind later (forgot why), but most assuredly came from the collective knowledge represented here. Some more thoughts:

Most real gun finishes are a blend of oils/varnish etc.  Sometimes shellac is used as a sealer.  Beeswax is another option.  There's a lot of ways to do it.  Some/most products are a blending of oils/solvents despite any product name which only indicates one or the other.

Finishing a gunstock can be a school unto itself.  And never worry, it can be stripped or rubbed back and refinished a few times until you get it like you like it.  It's just time and learning and fun.


See Dave's reply below and forget you read mine. I trust all Smart Dog says. 

[smart dog]

Hi,
I've used S-W tung oil on sporting and re-enactor guns for decades.  The difference in their outdoor versus indoor finishes is that the external stuff contains UV blockers.  It is meant for decks and outdoor furniture that are exposed to weather and sunlight daily for hours on end.  The indoor stuff will work just fine for you.  Hunting guns I built while living in SE Alaska were exposed to weather conditions most of you will rarely take your guns into. Those conditions also included sea spray while traveling in small boats.  The stocks of guns finished with S-W polymerized tung oil held up very well.  My guns are used on rainy weekend living history events, snowy week long hunts, damp gun gases, etc.  No problems.  One of my tung-oil finished guns was used to take a mountain goat in alpine terrain during a rainy period.  It looks as good today as when made except for some scratches and dents.  The only disadvantage to polymerized tung oil is that the shelf life is limited before it starts to gel after much exposure to air.  The answer to that is divide your can into small mustard-sized jars sealed with plastic wrap and then the screw lid. The unopened jars will last a long, long time. You want to just pay attention to those who have experience with "polymerized" tung oil, not those who used raw tung oil, or Formby's tung oil finish, or minwax tung oil finish, etc. Unless the oil specifically says "polymerized" the results will be very different.

dave

[Dennis Glazener]

Dave
What are your thoughts on using original formula Waterlox? I have some I have been thinking on using on one of Kibler's kits.
Dennis

[Scota4570]

http://www.bloxygen.com/

For finishes that scum over after opening this stuff will stop it. 

It is argon gas which is heavy and inert.  Argon from your TIG or MIG welder will do the same. 

[FDR]

Dave
What are your thoughts on using original formula Waterlox? I have some I have been thinking on using on one of Kibler's kits.
Dennis

Dennis: I use Waterlox as a sealer and filler on modern gunstocks all the time. It makes a great base for producing a "London" oil finish with the pores filled. If you don't want the high gloss just rub the gloss back until you get what is desired.


Fred

[smart dog]

Hi Dennis,
Yes, I believe that Allen Martin uses it for his finishes.  There are many good options with polymerized tung oil being one.  My point above is that readers need to be careful what posters are actually describing because they often don't provide the details that you need to know.  Also, when it comes to finishes, I urge members to take any poster who does not provide photos of their work with a grain of salt.   

dave

[alex e.]

As a fellow reenactor,I view all finished whether on wood or metal,as temporary.
They wear, they come off. Some are better than others.
I've.used a couple of the polymerised finished with varying success. Raw Tung oil did not impress me.
 On the next couple I will try Chambers oil though. I have heard nice things about it.

[smart dog]

Hi,
Raw tung oil is nothing like what the OP is considering.

dave

[Dennis Glazener]

Hi Dennis,
Yes, I believe that Allen Martin uses it for his finishes.  There are many good options with polymerized tung oil being one.  My point above is that readers need to be careful what posters are actually describing because they often don't provide the details that you need to know.  Also, when it comes to finishes, I urge members to take any poster who does not provide photos of their work with a grain of salt.   

dave

Just used it on an aquarium stand I made for our daughter, so far I think I like it. Will know more when my son-in-law starts splashing water all of it! It will get a good work-out with moisture then.
Dennis

[Mike Brooks]

I started out using true oil, too glossy and isn't weather proof and wears quickly. I went to chambers oil, Good stuff. More durable and less glossy and I like the red tint. Then I went to Formby's because I'm lazy and even the little hardware store 5 miles away carries it. I get about the same results as the Chambers oil. I'm considering going to a beeswax finish (at least once) like Gusler has used, haven't had the courage yet.....

[smart dog]

Hi Mike,
I am glad you mentioned Formby's Tung Oil finish.  It is not a bad finish at all but it is a wiping varnish.  It actually does not contain any tung oil but derivatives from tung oil mixed with other components.  I've used it a lot on furniture projects and like it. However, it does not penetrate very deeply compared with polymerized tung oil. I prefer S-W's product on my guns. Sutherland-Welles also sells a wiping varnish that is a mix of polymerized tung oil and a polyurethane varnish.  It is also a fine finish for guns very much like Permalyn.

dave

[Mike Brooks]

Hi Mike,
I am glad you mentioned Formby's Tung Oil finish.  It is not a bad finish at all but it is a wiping varnish.  It actually does not contain any tung oil but derivatives from tung oil mixed with other components.  I've used it a lot on furniture projects and like it. However, it does not penetrate very deeply compared with polymerized tung oil. I prefer S-W's product on my guns. Sutherland-Welles also sells a wiping varnish that is a mix of polymerized tung oil and a polyurethane varnish.  It is also a fine finish for guns very much like Permalyn.

dave

I suppose I use it differently than most folks. I put on probably 6 coats more or less and it eventually gets scrubbed off during the antiquing process and gets followed up by a bri wax finish. It's more of a sealer I suppose than anything else. Everything I do is a little off the wall , probably due to my isolation…..

[Mad Monk]

I started out using true oil, too glossy and isn't weather proof and wears quickly. I went to chambers oil, Good stuff. More durable and less glossy and I like the red tint. Then I went to Formby's because I'm lazy and even the little hardware store 5 miles away carries it. I get about the same results as the Chambers oil. I'm considering going to a beeswax finish (at least once) like Gusler has used, haven't had the courage yet.....

You might want to question the use of beeswax finish.  That idea came out of some early colonial writings in Virginia where the commanding officer of a group of British soldiers had them scrap off the ass issued linseed oil finish.  Then refinish them with beeswax.  The explanation I saw on that originally commented that it was little more than busy work for an idle group of soldiers.  The British soldier sometime entered the service by order of a judge.  A choice of a number of years in the British military or some years in New Gate.  When Idle they tended to get into trouble.  Now a wax finish on a gunstock is quickly worn away by the hands when handling the gun.  So they had to frequently spend time sitting down and re waxing the stock which was said to keep them occupied and out of trouble.

[Mad Monk]

When it comes to tung oil I'll doubt that you would see real pure tung oil being sold for a wood finish.  When I was working in the chemical plant I had access to the research library's book on industrial coatings.  When those books talked about pure tung oil finishes they told that it was used as a wrinkle finish on machine parts.  Linseed oil expands as it "drys" because it adsorbs oxygen from the air.  In the case of pure tung oil it adsorbs so much oxygen that that it expands to the point where it wrinkles.  A lot of the old laboratory tresting equipment in my lab had those wrinkle finishes in different colors.

Generally you see tung oil blended with linseed oil or the alkyd oil that are basically man-made versions of linseed oil.  Now when you mix linseed and tung oil and heat the two together the two react together and polymerize.  That polymerized oil combination gives a harder dry film that boiled linseed oil.   Far more abrasion resistance.  The molecular weight of the combination is greatly increased with cross links and polymer chain length.  The density of the dry films is above 1.0 specific gravity.  That makes it far more moisture resistant.  It really reduces the permeability of the dry films.  The cross linkages in the polymer give it greater strength but somewhat reduce elasticity.  And that is the problem when you finish a gun stock made with highly figured wood.  Getting a good balance between film hardness and elasticity.  Some time do some thin films of you finish on plates of glass.  Let them dry good and then go at them with a razor blade to see how hard and how elastic they are.  You soon learn to sort through the possible ones from the ones that will work best.

I also used hardware store "spar varnish".  Before the advent of the polyurethanes these were prized as finishes.  To be called a spar varnish it had to survive on test panels for 2.5 years in the Great Lakes areas or for 1 year in Florida.  Most of these were alkyd oils with a phenol formaldehyde added.  This phenol formaldehyde forms a bakelite type resin in the oil.  Bakelite was used to make the old cradle top dial telephones into the 1950s.  It in effect acted just like a good natural resin like those used back in the 1700 and 1800s in varnish making.  But with those spar varnishes you had to read labels and know what the chemicals were to judge the actual "quality" of the oil and the properties of a dry film of it.

Bill K.

[tiswell]

Thanks to all that replied. Informative stuff here!

[smart dog]

Hi,
There is no linseed oil in S-W polymerized tung oil. It is 65-75% solvent and the rest tung oil that was heat treated to speed drying. When folks mention they tried tung oil and it took forever to dry it is clear they did use a polymerized tung oil. S-W polymerized tung oil is usually dry to the touch in 4 hours and ready for the next coat in 24 hours. It does depend on temp, humidity, and UV light but even on my worst days with it, it is dry to touch in 24 hours.  During summer in warm sunshine, I find it dries too fast to hand rub.  I usually add a tiny bit of raw linseed or raw tung oil to slow down drying.

dave

[Daryl]

I use true oil n walnut- no stain.
 This one in 1986,
Picture taken in 2008.




This one in 2014 - pictures in 2014




This pistol in about 2008 - picture same year.

[Lzymtlsmth]

Thanks to all that replied. Informative stuff here!

Hi,
I've used S-W tung oil on sporting and re-enactor guns for decades.  The difference in their outdoor versus indoor finishes is that the external stuff contains UV blockers.  It is meant for decks and outdoor furniture that are exposed to weather and sunlight daily for hours on end.  The indoor stuff will work just fine for you.  Hunting guns I built while living in SE Alaska were exposed to weather conditions most of you will rarely take your guns into. Those conditions also included sea spray while traveling in small boats.  The stocks of guns finished with S-W polymerized tung oil held up very well.  My guns are used on rainy weekend living history events, snowy week long hunts, damp gun gases, etc.  No problems.  One of my tung-oil finished guns was used to take a mountain goat in alpine terrain during a rainy period.  It looks as good today as when made except for some scratches and dents.  The only disadvantage to polymerized tung oil is that the shelf life is limited before it starts to gel after much exposure to air.  The answer to that is divide your can into small mustard-sized jars sealed with plastic wrap and then the screw lid. The unopened jars will last a long, long time. You want to just pay attention to those who have experience with "polymerized" tung oil, not those who used raw tung oil, or Formby's tung oil finish, or minwax tung oil finish, etc. Unless the oil specifically says "polymerized" the results will be very different.

dave

I musta used the non polymerized.😱😱

[dogcatcher]

Pure tung oil, one brand is Hope's Tung Oil, you can find it on Amazon, another place that sells it is Woodcraft and "The Real Milk Paint Co". 

[Dphariss]

I am nearing completion of a Kibler Colonial kit. I plan to use tung oil as the finish. The Sunderland Welles website when describing their Original formula Polymerized Tung Oil  as used on gunstocks has this to say "gunstocks are rarely heavily exposed to the elements and never remain outside exposed to the weather, which causes a finish to deteriorate".

   I do a bit of living history and our guns do get soaked for days at a time with rain or an unplanned bath in a river. Does anyone have experience with a specific Tung oil finish that can hold up in the elements? S-W has an exterior polymerized oil that requires a sealer first. Both finishes are going to cost close to $90 for a quart of each.  I will spend the money if that is the best way to go, but would appreciate any first hand knowledge.

                                                                                                                                      Thanks, Bill

Chambers Oil or True Oil 50-50 with boiled LS oil, preferably properly shop cooked oil..
It will look a lot better and is not loaded with solvents that off gas stuff you should not be breathing.
Mixing the BLO into the True Oil makes it dry a little slower than True Oil and is more workable as a result. IMO Tung oil is over rated and I avoid anything that is mostly solvents. It takes too much work to finish a stock.

Dan

[dogcatcher]

Chambers Oil or True Oil 50-50 with boiled LS oil, preferably properly shop cooked oil..
It will look a lot better and is not loaded with solvents that off gas stuff you should not be breathing.
Mixing the BLO into the True Oil makes it dry a little slower than True Oil and is more workable as a result. IMO Tung oil is over rated and I avoid anything that is mostly solvents. It takes too much work to finish a stock.

Dan

Tru Oil and Chambers are combinations of thinners, an oil, and a varnish.  Here is the MSDS for Tru Oil
https://www.birchwoodcasey.com/files/datasheets/23145-Tru-Oil-Aerosol-Finish-2012.pdf  Chambers does not have one, so there is no telling what is in it.
Here are the "hazards" in Tru Oil.

[Flycaster1977]

In addition to this black powder stuff, i make knives. On wood handles i sand down to 400 grit and then apply a sealer. I made a “danish oil” from hopes tung oil, mineral spirits, and oil based spar varnish. Mixed 1:1:1. First coat gets saturated and i keep it wet for 15 min or so, then wipe off the excess. Let dry for 24 hours and then wipe on the next coat. Wait 5 min and wipe off the excess, then dry for 24 hours. The third coat gets lightly wet sanded in with 600 grit, using the finish as the wet medium. I usually do 9-12 coats using steps two and three. Every third coat gets wet sanded. This stuff seals the wood and leaves a real nice waterproof finish thats flexible enough to keep from cracking.

If i really want the grain to pop or to increase the deep look of the figure, i will topcoat with a wiping varnish after letting the sealer setup for 3-5 days.  Just dont oversand during step three, or youll sand into the stain. The 24 hour dry time is mandatory. Any less and its not set up enough.

[Dphariss]

Chambers Oil or True Oil 50-50 with boiled LS oil, preferably properly shop cooked oil..
It will look a lot better and is not loaded with solvents that off gas stuff you should not be breathing.
Mixing the BLO into the True Oil makes it dry a little slower than True Oil and is more workable as a result. IMO Tung oil is over rated and I avoid anything that is mostly solvents. It takes too much work to finish a stock.

Dan

Tru Oil and Chambers are combinations of thinners, an oil, and a varnish.  Here is the MSDS for Tru Oil
https://www.birchwoodcasey.com/files/datasheets/23145-Tru-Oil-Aerosol-Finish-2012.pdf  Chambers does not have one, so there is no telling what is in it.
Here are the "hazards" in Tru Oil.

I did not say it was the best. I post this because most people here are not ambitious enough to make the correct finish. So I tell them to use something that they can find easy. Adding the BLO "fattens" the finish and makes it much easier to apply and more durable.  I have not actually used it in 30 years or more.
Basically Tru-Oil from what I have been told by people wiser than I, is just a thickened cheap varnish. I also think your MSDS may be for the stuff in the spray can thus the porpane.
The stuff in the bottle is much more viscous and it dries too fast. Nor does it off gas at the rate almost every modern wood finish does... And I once worked at a place that wetsanded stocks with "tung oil" varnish for fill.  Huge pain in the a$$.

Dan