Tung oil question

[Dphariss]

I started out using true oil, too glossy and isn't weather proof and wears quickly. I went to chambers oil, Good stuff. More durable and less glossy and I like the red tint. Then I went to Formby's because I'm lazy and even the little hardware store 5 miles away carries it. I get about the same results as the Chambers oil. I'm considering going to a beeswax finish (at least once) like Gusler has used, haven't had the courage yet.....

You might want to question the use of beeswax finish.  That idea came out of some early colonial writings in Virginia where the commanding officer of a group of British soldiers had them scrap off the ass issued linseed oil finish.  Then refinish them with beeswax.  The explanation I saw on that originally commented that it was little more than busy work for an idle group of soldiers.  The British soldier sometime entered the service by order of a judge.  A choice of a number of years in the British military or some years in New Gate.  When Idle they tended to get into trouble.  Now a wax finish on a gunstock is quickly worn away by the hands when handling the gun.  So they had to frequently spend time sitting down and re waxing the stock which was said to keep them occupied and out of trouble.

Hi Bill

I have a good friend that has more knowledge of beeswax than everyone here combined, except maybe you Bill and he thinks using it as a finish is lunacy. When I told him some years ago that it had been mentioned on this site as a stock finish he looked at me like I had suddenly grown another head.

I used to work at a place that used Formby's low gloss. Its not really of much use as a stock finish. Unless it would be as the final top coat.
I have a heavy rifle I built for chunk and plank matches. People here would be amazed at the finishing process and it looks REALLY good.... But it was not finished with store bought "finish". The lack of solids in most store bought "finishes" means spending a week finishing the thing or more.

Dan

[Dphariss]

I would also point out that most modern finishes, like Permalyn which is plastic, look like modern finishes on the finished gun and usually do not stand up all that well since and are made for furniture not gunstocks. Anything that is hard enough to be "waterproof" will eventually fail on the wood.
Out in the rain? Use a warmed medium bodied oil with some resins added. Soak it into ALL the end grain and inlets . Wipe off the excess.
A seal coat with real shellac thinned to penetrate well, inside and out, is said to work well.

AND if you thin an REAL oil finish that is not already loaded with mineral spirits for goodness sake use real turpentine and don't over do it.

The archives have a number of threads on finishes.
Some even tell how to make the base "boiled" LS oil for an oil varnish  in shop and may even speak to adding the resins to complete the job.
Gunsmiths did not use the same finishes as musical instruments or furniture makers though. Cost too much and were less durable.

Dan

[Daryl]

This rifle has a beeswax finish - no oil and, it looks EXACTLY the same today as when made, just a few small marks, etc from hunting.

I added t6eh 'crown' picture, just because. I like good crowns.















image hosting

[kentuckyrifleman]

Hi,
I've used S-W tung oil on sporting and re-enactor guns for decades.  The difference in their outdoor versus indoor finishes is that the external stuff contains UV blockers.  It is meant for decks and outdoor furniture that are exposed to weather and sunlight daily for hours on end.  The indoor stuff will work just fine for you.  Hunting guns I built while living in SE Alaska were exposed to weather conditions most of you will rarely take your guns into. Those conditions also included sea spray while traveling in small boats.  The stocks of guns finished with S-W polymerized tung oil held up very well.  My guns are used on rainy weekend living history events, snowy week long hunts, damp gun gases, etc.  No problems.  One of my tung-oil finished guns was used to take a mountain goat in alpine terrain during a rainy period.  It looks as good today as when made except for some scratches and dents.  The only disadvantage to polymerized tung oil is that the shelf life is limited before it starts to gel after much exposure to air.  The answer to that is divide your can into small mustard-sized jars sealed with plastic wrap and then the screw lid. The unopened jars will last a long, long time. You want to just pay attention to those who have experience with "polymerized" tung oil, not those who used raw tung oil, or Formby's tung oil finish, or minwax tung oil finish, etc. Unless the oil specifically says "polymerized" the results will be very different.

dave

Is Tru-Oil a polymerized oil?

If so, it's interesting to hear that recommended. M1 Garand owners (and other milsurp rifles) generally dislike that stuff and use pure tung oil. I wonder why.

[dogcatcher]

Tru Oil in the bottle is 56% mineral spirits as is most of the other premixed oil finishes.  MS sells for about $7 a quart, the premixed finishes like Tru Oil sells for about $6 for 3 ounces.  Like Flycaster, I mix my own, net cost for a 3 ounce bottle is cheaper.  The other advantage, individually they don't go bad on me because I only mix what I need as I need it. 

[tiswell]

So far I have applied 2 penetrating coats of 50/50 Sunderland Welles Polymerized Tung Oil/mineral spirits mix and 5 coats total of straight out of the can Sunderland Welles. On the straight coats I brush on enough to wet the surface but not dripping, wait 20 minutes and wipe it off then use a small dry brush to get excess out of the carving. The stock is hung butt down to dry.  After the third coat I tried hand rubbing a tiny amount all over the stock directly following the brush on/wipe off process and it yielded a gummy residue in the buttstock area and a small area on the forestock. Full disclosure here, when that occurred I was keeping the stock in the basement and we had some cool damp weather. I have moved it upstairs and kept it near a space heater but it still took several (like4) days to fully dry. When it did finally dry, I steel wooled the areas and went back to the brush on/wipe off process and have applied two coats that way. With the heater it drys in a day. After last nights application I came back to it an hour later and noticed that a tiny bit of finish had migrated out of the incised carving above the ramrod channel so I rubbed it in with my hand. The stock does not appear to be changing, as in building up finish. It has a sheen or glow about like Daryl's half stock. How many coats does it normally take to provide sufficient protection? Is there anything in my procedure that I should change?

                                                                                                                                                                     Thanks, Bill

[Anonymous]

I have become a fan of ‘real’ tung oil that I purchase from the Real Milk Company for my stock finishes.  Began using it on Milsurp stocks years ago and have learned to love it. Lindseed oil never seemed to dry.  Lin Speed was better but seemed to get darker over time. TruOil never seemed that durable and had a lot of gloss.

Tung oil as I use it is not for those seeking instant gratification. I cut it between 50% and 75% with mineral spirits. I will apply a heavy coat of the Tung Oil mineral spirts mix and allow it to sit on the stock for about 30 minutes, then I wipe it down. Will repeat at every increasing time intervals over a one to two week period. If all looks good will allow finish to cure for at least a month. Once cured, believe I have a very durable finish. Any time I remove hardware from the stock in the future or have scratches to repair, I reapply. The light reapplication seems pretty stable after a day or so.

[Daryl]

Some time ago, like in the 1980's I read an article written by a Game bird guide on the North-East coast of USA. The article was about stock finishes that would resist water
BETTER than all the rest.
Thus duck and goose hunting guide would strip his expensive O/V down every winter after hunting season, and re-finish the walnut stock in Spar Varnish.  The reason for the Spar
Varnish was that it was the most water proof finish possible for his guns that were wet for almost the whole 2 month bird season.
After reading that article, I re-finished my expensive O/U in Spar Varnish.  As I took better care of my gun, I did not have to repeat the finish every year- but indeed when caught in the rain,
the water just beaded up and never wet the wood.
Spar Varnish - it's a pain to apply without getting dust in the finish - takes a week per coat, but protect, it certainly does.
 
That is the reason Spar Varnish was used for the raw-hide strapping on snowshoes and on boat oars as well.

[smart dog]

Hi,
Don't use a brush anymore to apply the oil.  Just wipe it on with a soft rag, wait a few minutes and wipe it off.  Temperature and humidity have a huge effect and I've had trouble drying it in temps below 65 degrees.  The gummy residue you experienced is because the coat below was not dry before applying the new coat.  I urge you not to rub the finish back with anything until it has cured for at least a week.  For protection, you already applied enough coats.  Now it is just a question of how built up or glossy you want it. The first photo shows the finish built up sufficiently to rub it back with rottenstone. That produced a glassy but not too glossy "on the surface" finish.

The second photo shows a gun with a more "in the wood" finish.  Both are done with S-W polymerized tung oil.


It takes some time and you must let it dry thoroughly before adding coats. One rule of thumb, when it fels dry to the touch, give it another 24 hours and then add more.  If you can put it out in sunlight and temps above 65 degrees, all the better and much faster.

dave

[tiswell]

Dave, Daryl, and Anonymous,
       Thanks for the informative replies. I put a hydrometer in the basement and it has stabilized at 85%! It has been a cool wet Spring here.  I wanted to have all of the finish on this while I was still burning the woodstove but bypass surgery interupted the process. The rifle will be primarily for hunting and living history. I am going to assemble it in its current condition and after a year or two I will put a couple more coats on it.

                                                                                                                                     Thanks, Bill

[Flycaster1977]

I would also point out that most modern finishes, like Permalyn which is plastic, look like modern finishes on the finished gun and usually do not stand up all that well since and are made for furniture not gunstocks. Anything that is hard enough to be "waterproof" will eventually fail on the wood.
Out in the rain? Use a warmed medium bodied oil with some resins added. Soak it into ALL the end grain and inlets . Wipe off the excess.
A seal coat with real shellac thinned to penetrate well, inside and out, is said to work well.

AND if you thin an REAL oil finish that is not already loaded with mineral spirits for goodness sake use real turpentine and don't over do it.

The archives have a number of threads on finishes.
Some even tell how to make the base "boiled" LS oil for an oil varnish  in shop and may even speak to adding the resins to complete the job.
Gunsmiths did not use the same finishes as musical instruments or furniture makers though. Cost too much and were less durable.

Dan

Pulled this from an earlier thread regarding permalyn


Rick schreiber wrote:

I’d like to add some more comments to the discussion about Laurel Mountain Forge’s Permalyn finish. First of all a little history..I’m Rick Schreiber, the owner and founder of Laurel Mountain Forge. While I do monitor a number of gunsmithing web sites I normally don’t respond. This time I do need to set the record straight. First of all Permalyn was never developed at the request of John Bivins. It was developed by me a number of years before I ever had a chance to meet John. John had heard of me and had a chance to use some of our products. He was impressed enough with the quality, that he started using our stains, finishes and browning solution on most of the rifles he was producing.  Over the years we became friends and it was at this time that he decided he would like to try marketing our Permalyn Sealer and Permalyn Gunstock Finish under his own brand.  Laurel Mountain Forge supplied John Bivins’ company with Permalyn Finish and Sealer in bulk, as well as a custom Antique Wood Stain, which he then re-branded. John did quite well with the sales for some time, but for various reasons, John decided it was becoming too much for him to handle, so he then transferred the finish and stain business to Lowell Manley Shooting Supplies in Michigan.  Lowell continued to sell our rebranded products until he passed on.

There seems to be a lot of discussion about what is a traditional finish and what is not. My question is why does it matter? Are we using traditional barrel steels? I certainly hope not. What about the spring steel alloys. For those of shooting flintlocks what about tool steel frizzens as opposed to case hardening. Most of the antiques we see today do not have their original finish and certainly not the original color. What we enjoy looking at is the product of 200 years of waxing, refinishing and general wear and tear. I would hazard to guess that if any of us saw a rifle fresh out of an 18th century gunshop, we would not be too impressed with the finish or the color.

All that being said, Permalyn is certainly based on modern technology. When I developed it, I was striving for a finish that was durable, easy to apply and had the appearance of what I thought a good stock finish should look like. If it didn’t meet these goals, I would have developed something else.

There was a statement that Permalyn was a plastic finish. I am not sure what that means. Permaly is no more a plastic than cured linseed oil, or a spar varnish is. They all will dry hard and glossy and can not be re-dissolved when cured. Also Laurel Mountain Forge’s Permalyn does not have any of the Eastman chemical Permayn ester resins in its formulation. Similar names, but not similar products.

I’m off my soap box now….I hope I haven’t offended anyone.

Rick

[Pete G.]

Thanks to Rick for clearing up some of the BS about his finishes

[The Stumbler]

You folks may be interested in this product for finish preservation. I haven't tried it yet but I'm leaning towards giving it a go.
 

[Dphariss]

This might be of interest.

https://www.brownells.com/userdocs/MSDS/519-300-032_PERMALYN%20GUN%20STOCK%20FINISH,%2032%20OZ.%20(QT)%20-%20519_default.pdf