Author Topic: 1-90" twist in a .54 or .58 cal. rifle (Read 4269 times)

R.J.Bruce · « **on:** March 30, 2019, 03:26:22 AM »

Does anyone shoot a .54 or .58 caliber rifle with a 1-90" rate of twist?

If so, what are your experiences in getting it to shoot accurately at 50, 75, and 100 meters?

Thanks,
R.J.Bruce

Skirmisher · « **Reply #1 on:** March 30, 2019, 03:41:19 AM »

I don't think I ever saw a twist that slow, except perhaps in an original Baker rifle. Original U.S. military rifles in .54 caliber had twists in the neighborhood of 42 to 48 inches (At least those I have fired) and they shoot very well. .58 barrels bored with a 72 inch twist also shoot very well, but want more powder.

smylee grouch · « **Reply #2 on:** March 30, 2019, 04:44:54 AM »

1-75 in a 58 perc. would not shoot any good at all untill you got to 70 gr. - 2f and 125+ gr. was it,s best grouping combo with a tight fit and tough patch.

Skirmisher · « **Reply #3 on:** March 30, 2019, 04:57:31 AM »

Smylee - That is sort of where I was going. A 72-inch twist is about as slow as you can go, and if that is your choice then you want lots and lots of powder. Slow twists were not much favored in the old days, even in big bores. For some reason the Brits used a much slower twist in the Baker's, but they were only trying to improve over smoothbore musket accuracy, a rather low bar.

Larry Pletcher · « **Reply #4 on:** March 30, 2019, 05:19:13 AM »

The closest I can come is a .58 Sharon barrel that is 1 turn in 72". When working on a load we found that 90 grains of Swiss fffg gave us between 1600 and 1700 fps. (I'm not recommending this load; just telling what we did.) This summer I will find a ffg load that will give the similar velocities.
It surprised us with how nicely it handles squib loads. A load of 30 grains Swiss fffg gave us 870 fps.

Regards,
Pletch

smylee grouch · « **Reply #5 on:** March 30, 2019, 05:35:15 AM »

My 1-75 twist 58 is a custom made barrel to the specs I wanted. I was going to go with 1-90 at that time but changed my mind to 1-75. Jim Goodieon made the barrel for me but is now retired and Charlie Burton took over Jims equipment and can make any twist you want I think.

Fyrstyk · « **Reply #6 on:** March 30, 2019, 03:18:13 PM »

Bobby Hoyt did a re-bore for me to .58 and he recommended a 1:66 deep groove rifling as a good compromise for low and high powder loads. The 1:66 requires 110 grains of 2f with a round ball to give me a relatively flat trajectory out to 100 yards. (75 yards is my person limit for shoot at game with iron sights) A light load of 45 grains will give me 1" groups at 25 yards, but after that it drops off quite a bit.

Longknife · « **Reply #7 on:** March 30, 2019, 05:28:29 PM »

The big old English Bore rifles of the late 19th century had very slow twists,, often in the 90 to 100 range. They also used huge amounts or powder, I don't think you would like the recoil to get that thing to shoot well!!!!!

smylee grouch · « **Reply #8 on:** March 30, 2019, 05:33:19 PM »

!-66 sounds like it would work OK too but I had planed on shooting shillouets (sp) at 25,50,100,150, and 200 meters with that 1-75 58 cal. so I wanted to shoot as flat as I could for all those ranges and still have enough power for the rams at 200 which were hinged at both feet so hitting one on the end took more power to twist it over.

OldMtnMan · « **Reply #9 on:** March 30, 2019, 05:44:05 PM »

The GPR is an accurate gun for a lot of us. It's 1-60 for a .54.

Daryl · « **Reply #10 on:** March 30, 2019, 08:46:23 PM »

I've had .58's with 48", 56", 66" and 72" twists. They've all shot very well with nice snug loads and appropriate amounts of powder.
The 66" twist Hawken I had shot best at 100 Yards, with 140gr. 2F GOEX, while the 72" twist shot best with 120gr. GOEX 2F. At that time
I also tried C&H 2F- late 70's powder and to match the 140gr. GOEX load, I used 180gr. of C&H. Lyman's BP handbook was spot-on to my
chronographed loads using my Oehler #12 machine, with both loads, 140gr. and 180gr. making 1,800fps average.

Just goes to show that you actually have to experiment to find what the gun likes - if you are interested in finding it's best load.

A fellow from Terrace was at the range when I shot a 5-shot group with the 66" twist .58 Hawken and upon retrieving the target,
offered me enough money for the rifle right there, that I could not turn it down. That was a Bill Large barrel which usually ran 1-1/2"
at 100yards. That rifle also did 1,365fps with a 675gr. modified Minnie using 165gr. 2F GOEX. It also kicked very hard with that narrow, pointy
butt plate. The barrel was 1 1/8" straight octagonal and was 34" long.

hanshi · « **Reply #11 on:** March 30, 2019, 10:38:33 PM »

The .54 in my stable - A US M1841 Mississippi rifle - has a twist of 1-66", IIRC. This fine walnut stocked rifle easily groups about 1" at 60 yards for 5 shots which is as far as I've ever fired it. The usual load is 60 grains of 3F although it has digested up to 110 grains. The 1-66" twist initially sounded a bit slow to me but works extremely well. DGW sells essentially the same rifle but with a 1-48" twist. I still believe that in general too much fuss is made over ROT.

varsity07840 · « **Reply #12 on:** March 30, 2019, 11:45:18 PM »

Bobby Hoyt freshed out a .54 to .58 for me. I asked for a 1:72 twist. I shot a lot of powder and ball before I discovered that it liked 100 gr of 2F Swiss to get it right.

Mauser06 · « **Reply #13 on:** April 02, 2019, 02:57:32 AM »

Tomorrow I may be testing my 58cal. It's a Hoyt barrel with his gain twist. Not really sure what to expect....or what it may want powder wise...as I shoot it, I will try to post. Not many here have experience with gain twist. Bobby told me everyone that he's done has been very happy.

smylee grouch · « **Reply #14 on:** April 02, 2019, 03:25:34 AM »

What is the starting and ending twist rate on that Hoyt barrel?

R.J.Bruce · « **Reply #15 on:** April 03, 2019, 02:18:40 AM »

Thanks for all the responses!!

The reason for the OP was that I read on Doc White's site of a handful of .58 caliber flintlock and percussion rifles that he had made with 1-90 twists; as well as a single inline percussion in .54 caliber with a 1-90 twist.

I was curious as to the amount of powder required to make a 1-90 twist shoot well.

R.J.Bruce

Daryl · « **Reply #16 on:** April 03, 2019, 04:25:42 AM »

Dphar has a gain twist in his plank rifle, a .50, made by Jim McLemore. Seems to me he uses something over or around 110gr. 2F
to get it to sing at 60-yards. I also think Dan is unbeaten at that game so far, at the local & Wyoming shoots.
http://www.sleepyhillbarrels.com/About.html

yulzari · « **Reply #17 on:** April 03, 2019, 02:38:30 PM »

In the case of extremely slow twist rifles using round balls it might pay you to look at Forsythe rifling around t'internet and James Forsyth's book 'The Sporting Rifle and It's Projectiles' 1861 (https://archive.org/details/sportingriflean00forsgoog).

OldMtnMan · « **Reply #18 on:** April 03, 2019, 04:55:14 PM »

I talked to a guy from Green Mountain barrels and he told me they worked a long time coming up with their 1-70 twist barrels and thought it was perfect.

I know early GPR's were 1-66 and now they're 1-60. Why the change?

The original Hawken rifles were 1-48.

A lot of experimenting with barrel twists. Who knows who's right?

Daryl · « **Reply #19 on:** April 04, 2019, 07:49:32 PM »

My .45 GM had a 60" twist, seems to me.

OldMtnMan · « **Reply #20 on:** April 04, 2019, 08:08:02 PM »

I was talking about bigger bores. We can't hunt big game here with a .45 if you want to use a PRB.

Mauser06 · « **Reply #21 on:** April 04, 2019, 11:03:54 PM »

Smylee, I actually have no idea on what the twist start and ends as.

Haven't made it to the range yet...maybe this Monday or Tuesday. I need to pattern my turkey flinter so it's gunna happen here soon....

Bob Roller · « **Reply #22 on:** April 05, 2019, 12:46:21 AM »

Years ago,Don Brown told me of 1 in 90 twists in his 58 caliber Alex Henry
copies and said he got good accuracy but he didn't say how much powder he used.
I would think that a 1 in 90 "twist"in a 30" barrel would look like splines but then,
isn't all rifling splines with a different application other than automobiles??

Bob Roller

HelmutKutz · « **Reply #23 on:** April 05, 2019, 01:51:17 AM »

If patch is too tight the ballis deformed during loading, also when ram rod is used as driving a pile. More round the ball stays, the less rotation velocity required for stable flight.
HK

Daryl · « **Reply #24 on:** April 05, 2019, 09:53:26 PM »

To go along with Helmut's post, the slower the twist, the shallower the rifling can be.
At some point though, improved accuracy is needed- or simply desired and the fit must be tighter
and thus, needing a faster twist. There are limits in both methods.

Forsyth wrote that if accuracy was desired at 200 to 250yards, an 8' twist (96") would be find, but if accuracy
was only required to 150yards, then a 12' (144") twist would do. He was speaking of calibres .66" and larger.

Too, many hunters who had rapid twist rifles, common in that day (mid 1800's) simply overloaded their guns and shot
point blank on the dangerous game, keeping ranges to 60yards or closer, or loaded balls in the partridge popper.

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Author Topic: 1-90" twist in a .54 or .58 cal. rifle (Read 4269 times)