Is there such a thing as Reddish Brass?

[acorn20]

A friend of mine is currently building two rifles.  Although he has access to the internet (he still has dial-up), he just can't access this site so he asked me to forward a couple questions.  The hardware on the two rifles is different.  One is yellow brass, which he believes he secured from Reeves Goerhring, and one is brass with a reddish tint.  He's not sure where he picked up this set of hardware as he and I frequent different vendors at shoots and events. 

He's noticed in books that some modern gunsmiths have used the brass with the reddish tint and mixed yellow brass ramrod thimbles and endcaps, etc.  There's a definite difference.  The question is this...what gives the brass a reddish tint?  Is it bronze?  Is there a vendor that sells sheet brass that has a reddish tint or does everyone just use the yellow brass.  Please advise and thanks.

Dan

[Dave B]

I believe it is from a greater percentage of Copper that gives it a readish look. I have a bivins trigger guard and it looks fine by its self till you put one of Gorhings castings next to it and its definately got a reddish tint. I have heard some talk of a slica Bronze or some such but I am not sure what the make up of this particular guard is. Any body else got an Idea on this?

[rich pierce]

Many to most of the investment cast "brass" furniture parts are now made of a form of bronze that is hard as a bell, doesn't anneal well and is off-color.  These parts break if you try to cold-bend them.  A Reeves Goehring guard, you could tie in a knot before it would break.

I have seen reddish brass on some Rev. War Muskets that were shown back in the day at Washington Crossing State Park.  They were simple and some were hammered pieces and supposed to have been made from all sorts of melted down brass and copperware.

[jerrywh]

. There is a brass called jewelers brass. It has more copper in it than yellow brass. It is nicer to engrave and easier to work then regular yellow brass. I have never seen it cast but it is sold by some jewelers supplies in sheet form.
Then there is regular red cast brass. It is used mostly for casting faucets and such and is more brittle than yellow brass. It does not make good gun castings because it is not very bendable and annealing does not help. It is not the same a the silicone bronze castings that some casters are using. Silicone bronze cannot be bent at all but is very pretty.
Investment casting does not make brass brittle. It is the alloy that is used that imparts the physical properties to the casting. If the same alloy is used for a sand casting and a investment casting the investment casting will always be better if the are both done correctly. I have done both and used all three alloys.

[George F.]

I had picked up some scrap from a fabricator who did brass rails, door kicjplates and such. It was in my cheapskate days trying to save money. Well it had a reddish tint to it, like yours. Was later, after the gun was built that I had mixed yellow brass with the red brass. I was dumbfounded,  I thought brass , was brass, period. My quest for more knowledge, found out that there a quite a few alloys of brass. The main two elements are copper and the other being zinc.Vary these alittle, plus a few other ingredients, and things change.  ...Geo.

[billd]

This has nothing to do with gun building, just an example of different brass alloys and there uses.  The machine shop I work in makes all kinds of pipe fittings. Several years ago I brought home a couple of yellow brass, alloy 360, nipples and used them on my swimming pool filter. Within one summer the chlorine ate right through them. I replaced them with cast red brass, alloy 85-5-5-5. That was over ten years ago and they are still as solid as the day I installed them. I'm not a metallurgist and don't know why this happened but obviously a little more or less of a certain element changes the composition dramatically.

Bill

[JV Puleo]

In the late 18th and early 19th centuries "red" brass was typically used on Birmingham-made sword hilts, probably because it took a silver wash or fire gilding better. It wasn't usually used (as far as I've noticed) when the parts were simply polished. It is just brass made with more copper and less tin in the alloy. I haven't seen it often on guns but I do have the wreck of a very long fowler (54"barrel, maybe 1760-1780) that has a very red entry pipe...

[jerrywh]

Copper and zink make brass. Copper and tin make bronze. The physical properties are very different.

[FL-Flintlock]

There are about 68 brass alloys with roughly 33 of them being common and 7 being very common; tensile ranges from 30-88 ksi.

Typical yellow brass is 67 Cu, 3 Pb, 1 Sn, 29 Zn
Typical yellow plumbing brass is 72 Cu, 3 Pb, 1 Sn, 24 Zn
Typical die cast brass is 58 Cu, 1 Pb, 1 Sn, 40 Zn

Typical red electrical brass is 93 Cu, 1.5 Pb, 1.5 Sn, 4Zn
Typical red plumbing brass is 85 Cu, 5 Pb, 5 Sn, 5 Zn

Semi-red brass used in plumbing fixtures/fittings 76-78 Cu, 6-7 Pb, 3 Sn, 12-15 Zn

Another typical semi-red casting alloy is 81 Cu, 7 Pb, 3 Sn, 9 Zn

Typical high-copper alloys often mistaken by appearance for red brass contain:
95-97.7 Cu, 0-1 Ag, 0-6 Al, 0.4-2.6 Be, 0.5-0.9 Co, 0-1 Fe, 0-3 Mn, 0-1.25 Ni, 0-1 Pb, 0-0.25 Si  (These are generally your harder alloys and vary from free-machining and ductile to brittle and do not contain any zinc)

Jeweler's brass is typically C-260 a/k/a Cartridge brass: 68.5-71.5 Cu, 0-0.5 Fe, 0-0.07 Pb, balance Zn

The common free-cutting brass is 60-63 Cu, 0-0.35 Fe, 2.5-3.7 Pb, 0-1.5 Sn, balance Zn  (Anneals but work-hardens quickly, not good for cold working, hot-works well as long as you watch the heat carefully)

[acorn20]

Holy Mackerel!!! Thanks for the insight and chemistry lesson.  I'm a little bit like George...I thought brass was brass.  I had no idea that so many variations existed.  I'll gladly forward this information to my friend.  Thanks again.

Dan