Bottom lock panel help?

[Mauser06]

Any help here?   It's not looking "right". 



The lock is a Dale Johnson.  Trigger is a Stan Hollenbaugh single set.   Barrel is a Bobby Hoyt C weight. The trigger is functioning properly firing set and not set.  I've already removed about all I can from the trigger bar to get it as high as it is.
















It's looking way too thick on the bottom but really there isn't wood to remove.  There web at the breech is nearly non-exsistent and there is maybe a smidge over 1/16" at the front of the trigger guard till you break into the ramrod channel.   


I'm not sure where I screwed up.  That all adds up to a nice slender rifle...that bottom area just isn't looking right though.   



Any thoughts? Help? Fixes?   


I appreciate it!

[Bigmon]

Looks OK to me, unless I am not seeing what ya mean?

[Nordnecker]

This is what I think. You have done your best to get things to look a certain way. Could it look better? Maybe. But I don't think it can look much different with the lock, bolts and side plate where they are now. I haven't used a D. Johnson lock. Perhaps the lock is a tad forward. If that is the case, then the curve of the bottom of the stock would have given you the extra room you need for your triggers to function while, at the same time, allowing you to slim the bottom down a bit more. Or maybe not. When building these guns, 1/32" can really have an impact. What's that round black thing?

[Longknife]

''''''''''''''It's looking way too thick on the bottom but really there isn't wood to remove'''''''''''I think you answered your own question, go ahead and build it,,,,Ed

[ron w]

unfortunately,....I think the "thick" look comes from the rear bottom half of the ill-shaped lock panel. it maybe should have followed the curve of the grip just a bit better. that would reduce the margine at the bottom of the panel and reduce the look like the stock is drooping away from the lock panel in that area. not much you can do about it any more, there is already too much wood removed from the panel in that area.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I think you've got the optimum out of a big diameter barrel and a small lock.  I like your lock panels, and don't agree that they are poorly sculptured at the back end.  If it were mine, I would work on the area at the front end of the lock, to raise the bottom line of the panel to a little more parallel plane, both on the lock and side plate side.  And at the front end of the plate, in front of the frizzen, some more sculpturing there would take away the chunkiness there.
1/16" wood along the bottom in front of the trigger guard?  How big is the rod hole?  I once built a .62 cal rifle around a D weight barrel, and used a 1/2" rod hole on the request of the client, and that rifle was deeper than yours through the lock section.  Yet the rifle turned out nicely, and the client was happy.  So apart from the bit of work at the forward end of the panel, I think it's fine.  Apart from inletting the guard and trigger deeper to straighten out the bottom line of the stock, your rifle is committed.  So go ahead and finish it up.  Nice work in my estimation.

[Mauser06]

Thanx all!  I appreciate the extra eyeballs and advise...even if "too late" for this one" I want to learn for the next one. 



Nordnecker, the router d black thing the rifle is on??   That's just my stool lol.   Certain jobs I like to sit...though my bench and vise is setup for mostly standing. 

Ron w, I see what you mean I think...this is my first plank build....I think I tried too hard to follow what I had laid out...I always try to think ahead and not work myself into mistakes.  In this case I was a bit intimidated by the plank.  I laid out plenty of lines and "stuck to them" and at the rear of the lock, I could have shaped the panel a little differently which may gave a little better look. 

Taylor, I appreciate the feedback.  The rod hole is 3/8". Like I said, the top web at the breech is nearly non-exsistent.  The bottom web is nice and thin...thinner than I actually thought when I broke into it inletting the guard.   I haven't finished filling the trigger guard down.  It was a BIG sand casting. I've already removed a good bit of it to get it where it's at now lol.  Got a good bit more to remove.   I haven't worked on the forward end of the lock panel and forestock yet. That'll all get cleaned up.



I will post the entire rifle for review after I get it closer to final shape.   Like I said, this is my first plank build and really my 2nd longrifle build.  I want to learn and I can't do that without knowing what I could have done better.   I've learned that clean inletting and turning a bunch of parts into a functional gun isn't terribly difficult.   Turning the wood into a fine longrifle is....my eye is getting better. I study reference pics daily.  I never had an artistic eye or hand...so it's "in the works". 


I really do appreciate you guys taking the time to look over my pictures and help me progress.  I'd really like to go-to some of the classes/workshops and get to some of the shows...but it's been impossible to work into my schedule. 

[ron w]

it is a difficult spot to shape correctly. proportions and balance of used space must be just about perfect for it come out right and that only comes from experience and practice. no-one gets it right the first time so carry on, do the best you can and be proud of the rifle you built.  keep an eye on that with your next build,....now you know what to watch out for !. I am lucky,...I have a life time of shaping wood for a living, …..it's not something you pick up in short time....I still make mistakes and learn something every time I start shaping a stock.

[flinchrocket]

The only thing I see is maybe a small hump on top the wrist about 1 1/2 or so behind the tang screw.
Hard to tell by a pic! That small curve in the Dale Johnson lockplate makes things look different also, but they are a dandy little lock.

[Stophel]

I see two problems, that put together are giving the gun the fat look.  One, the lockplate appears to have been inlet with the tail end too high, maybe.  Hard to see that for sure.  Two, you got a LOT of wood below the lock in the trigger area.  The line of the fore end is fine, but it fattens up too much behind the breech.  I don't know how the trigger arrangement works, but it really does need to move up, which you already know.

What does the trigger look like?  Why can't you cut the top of it down any more  to allow it to sink in farther?  I've never had the problem of a set trigger being too tall!    I usually can't even get them to reach the sear!

[flehto]

To me, the curve of the wrist starts too far  forward....the lower line of the lower forestock should come straight back to   just in front of the  trigger and then the curve of the wrist should start. Shown is my last Lancaster which has a minimum of wood below the lock and has 3/32" of wood below the RR hole. The lock is a Dale Johnson and the Rice bbl is a "B" weight. The web at the breech is 1/16".....Fred

[James Wilson Everett]

Guys,

One way I treat this area is to drill a small hole down through the stock right at the juncture between the breech plug and the end of the barrel.  The front of the trigger guard will cover the hole.  Now you can actually get a true measurement of the space for the front lock bolt and the wood thickness below the ramrod hole.  I often shave the belly wood away until the ramrod will touch the inside of the trigger guard extension.  See the pics, I hope that this makes sense. You can see the ramrod in the lower picture to get the idea.

Jim

[Mauser06]

Stophel, I agree...tipping the lock tail a smidge would have helped...the trigger bar looks almost like a normal trigger bar. Instead of pivoting on a pin, there is a small bushing that allows it to fire as a normal trigger or as a set trigger.  I have the bar thinned down about all I can get from it. 


Flehto, those pics help ...I see what you mean and where I could have shaped it just a little bit differently and changed the look there.... shortening the rear of the lock panel might help?  Right now it's a little exaggerated and drawn out. 


James, that's something I never thought of...I drill a couple in the barrel channel to figure out the top web then I mark the web and ramrod channel...your method would be more precise for locating the bottom of the stock.

[flehto]

The rear of the lock panel could be shortened some  and the curves going down to the point could be straight.....but, personal preferences could predominate.  Don't think that this would affect your problem. Shown is a Bucks County w/ shorter lock panels and as can be seen,  the TH liner is right at the top of the side bbl flat.... this w/ a 1/16" web at the breech and a high lock location contribute to a "slim" LR.....I use some of this for Lancasters , but not all.....Also, I'm not as knowledgeable as some builders on ALR......Fred
 

[StevenV]

Mauser if that is your second long rifle and first from a blank you have nothing to be ashamed of nothing at all. Pretty good that you noticed the lock panel/belly issue. Taylor your point finally hit me , thanks , size of lock plate in relation to width of barrel at the breech and how that plays into the "look" below the lock, great point. I am currently building one with a Colrain C weight barrel. I was planning on using a large Seiler lock. I will look this over a bit closer and see if the lock fits the area given the breech (1 1/16") size. Thank You!!!!    Steve

[Dphariss]

Try something like this video.
You might be able to file the TG finial down a little as well. Or not. It not uncommon for people who are new to building to leave too much wood.
AND you must make the trigger or what ever FIT YOUR BUILD... I would file the trigger down the give clearance at the sear for the dimension I needed or find a different trigger.
Also. CUT THE STOCK TO SIZE FIRST, before inletting the lock and triggers.  If you do not you will end up with too much wood that will have to be taken off while inletting.  Cut the bottom line to no more than an 1/8" larger than the finished rifle. This will prevent leaving it too deep.
Draw in the barrel bottom flat location, draw in the web, then the RR channel. Add 1/8 " and you have your finished forend depth at the lock. Draw the lock on so that the front lock bolt is in the web. See how everything fits. If it looks good saw that sucker out. The final sawing can be done after the barrel channel is in.  I do this before I do the rod groove. Bottom of the rod groove sets the web. Make SURE this groove is parallel to  the BORE and allows for proper web at the lock bolt on tapered/swamped barrels. I.E. the web will be thicker at the muzzle than at the front lock bolt. NOT keeping the groove parallel with the bore can cause "issues" when drilling the RR hole.
You are pretty well stuck with what you have unless you move the front TG pin up. Honestly I would not sweat this at this point. But you can play some wood removal games in front of the TG bow if you want.
Forgive the spelling of the title. It was a "drive by posting" I guess....

Dan

[Dphariss]

This is a Dale Johnson with a B weight swamp.
Based on Dickert #48 in RCA
Its been a comedy of errors.....
But I think it will look ok when done. If not exactly Dickert.

Dan


six sided dice

[Dave B]

Like others have said for the first blank made rifle you are way ahead of the game.  The only suggestion I would make is to look at the side plate  area at the breach. You have a high ramp there right now and it would slim the look up by taking it down a bit. That top edge of the fore stock moving forward should be just a smidge below the half way point of the barrel side flat to make it look slimmer.  The only other thing to consider next time around is to use a cardboard (cereal box type) cut out of the side plate before committing to the side plates final shape. That forward top drop off to the extension for the front lock bolt is just a little too much. You did a much better job on the back half of your side plate, the front is just a little too much. It may be helpful to just make the filing detail for that bevel to be a bit broader to make the overall plate look slimmer. Doing the same on the bottom bevel wouldn't be a bad Idea as well. pardon the squiggles but you get the general Idea. That said you can find similar shaped plates on originals. On the whole your build is miles beyond my first blank build. Good work.

[Mauser06]

Tons of good info!  I appreciate it all!   


Seems maybe I put the lock "low".  It's about pan center on the flat.... couldn't go any higher.. actually had a little interference with the main spring on the barrel...


Dave, good catches...2 areas I'm not "done" with.    I try to work through each task and have some sort of order....but I also get bored or want to take a break from something and start working on something else...the sideplate actually isn't completely inlet yet and not done "cleaning it up" and the front half of the side panels aren't done...I was getting ready to move to them when I just wasn't happy with how the rest of it was looking....


It is my first plank build and 2nd longrifle build.  I actually shot it yesterday.  Fires like a champ and already shooting very well.   It might not win a beauty contest.  Might not be a bench copy...but I think it's going to turn out alright...and I'm a hunter.  That's my new personal hunting rifle.   


Should mention it's supposed to be early Lancaster-ish and maybe a hint of Albrecht influences with a hint of Allen Martin for taste...lol.   

[Mauser06]

Still a lot of cleanup and reshaping to do....


Last night I took it all apart to see what was going on and to see if I had more wood to remove than I thought.   


Sure enough, I had a lot of wood that could be removed.    I removed it.   Lol. 


Like I said, there's a lot of reshaping and cleanup to do now.  And, my Hollenbaugh single set trigger isn't going to work.....so I will learn to make my own regular ole trigger. 



I appreciate all the info and feedback.   The more I looked at it, the more it bugged me.  The stock was laid out by Allen Martin and he had Fred Miller inlet the barrel and drill the ramrod hole...I knew I shouldn't have an issue getting skinny...lol. One thing I love about Allen's work is he can make a 12 pound gun look like it's 7. 

[Davemuzz]

I like the cleanup. Looks much better!