Author Topic: Late flint English rifle for Tony  (Read 7116 times)

Offline hen

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 32
Re: Late flint English rifle for Tony
« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2019, 01:58:46 PM »
Possibly the best interpretation of a late English flint rifle to appear on this board; many congratulations.

Henry.

Offline flehto

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3335
Re: Late flint English rifle for Tony
« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2019, 02:08:05 PM »
Another beautiful MLer that displays your extensive skills and artistry......Fred

Offline elk killer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1514
Re: Late flint English rifle for Tony
« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2019, 02:17:34 PM »
Great rifle, can you please share what modification  was done to the Davis lock ?
only flintlocks remain interesting..

Offline Dan Fruth

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 556
    • D Fruth Flintlocker
Re: Late flint English rifle for Tony
« Reply #28 on: April 10, 2019, 02:30:42 PM »
Absolutely beautiful rifle and superb craftsmanship.....Who wouldn't be proud to own this piece....Great job Dave.
The old Quaker, "We are non-resistance friend, but ye are standing where I intend to shoot!"

Offline Rolf

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1764
  • There's more than one way to skin a cat.
Re: Late flint English rifle for Tony
« Reply #29 on: April 10, 2019, 02:45:24 PM »
Truly amazing rifle. Top of the line.

Best regards
Rolf

Online smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7018
Re: Late flint English rifle for Tony
« Reply #30 on: April 10, 2019, 02:57:48 PM »
Hi and thanks everyone,
I worked hard on this gun and appreciate your responses and comments. 
Elk Killer, the link below is to a thread discussing the Davis lock.  If you scroll down a bit, you will see my post about modifying the lock.
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=53413.0
The engraving on my lock is simple but directly inspired by a John Manton gun. What really sets off the lock is not the engraving but the 2-step border I cut in the bevel on the plate and flintcock. It is like adding a nice elegant picture frame around a painting. Some locks from this period would have a running leaf border engraved in the bevel but I decided that would be too busy given the thinness of the bevel and the step border.  If the plate was flat and inlet flush to the wood, I would engrave a running leaf border.

I noticed in the photos that the screw slot on my breech tang screw is badly off center.  I am embarrassed.  I don't know how I missed that little detail.  I'll be making a new replacement screw today.

Thanks again everyone.  I appreciate your interest and comments.

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9691
Re: Late flint English rifle for Tony
« Reply #31 on: April 10, 2019, 03:56:58 PM »
OUTSTANDING in all aspects.That breech is nearly identical to the one I used on
a 58 caliber flintlock with my Ketland lack and it went off like a center fire with
no really noticeable lag.If that lock is working right it will do the same with the
Chambers vent.I made my own vent from a byrillium rod.This was back in 2008.
I have a halfstock started but have no idea when I will ever get it done but it's
not a priority.If I decide to work on it I'll use a Durs Egg with a double throated
cock and my own mechanism.IF I do get this gun working it will NOT look like
this one.I am NOT a wood worker.

Bob Roller
« Last Edit: April 10, 2019, 04:13:06 PM by Bob Roller »

Offline Tim Crosby

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 18388
  • AKA TimBuckII
Re: Late flint English rifle for Tony
« Reply #32 on: April 10, 2019, 04:04:14 PM »
 If that's not Right, what is? Beautiful work Dave.

   Tim

Offline Pukka Bundook

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3472
Re: Late flint English rifle for Tony
« Reply #33 on: April 10, 2019, 04:34:58 PM »
Dave,

I've seen some pretty high-end guns with slots a bit off, particularly on the screw heads rounded to match guards and such.

Jerry mentioned a gold -lined pan, but by the time platinum lined touchholes were used, gold lined pans seemed to have been dropped.

Dave, I love the way you worked that pan over!  Perfect! nice and thin in the rim.  Just Perfect!

My middle name could be Tony if it'd help.....   :-)

Offline tlallijr

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 180
Re: Late flint English rifle for Tony
« Reply #34 on: April 10, 2019, 04:53:04 PM »
 Dave, I'm blown away ! I know all the thought and study that went into this piece and it certainly paid off. Your high level of craftsmanship and attention to detail shows beautifully in this magnificent rifle, something to truly be admired. To say I will be the proud new owner is an understatement ! I look forward to getting that fine rifle in my hands. Thank you, Tony

Offline smylee grouch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7908
Re: Late flint English rifle for Tony
« Reply #35 on: April 10, 2019, 04:56:42 PM »
Hi Dave: Several have commented on the checkering so can you tell us what two lines you started with to keep every thing lined up in your pattern from side to side? I hope I explained that right! When you cross over the top of the wrist some people seem to go astray with there master lines like me>  ;D  :)

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15839
Re: Late flint English rifle for Tony
« Reply #36 on: April 10, 2019, 07:15:25 PM »
Stunning rifle, Dave. Truly stunningly beautiful. Such a wonderful
 hunting rifle - best design ever!  These rifles point like fine shotguns. 
So nice.
VERY lucky owner.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Online smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7018
Re: Late flint English rifle for Tony
« Reply #37 on: April 11, 2019, 01:00:59 AM »
Hi and thank you all very much,
Pukka, I always look forward to your comments and Daryl, Taylor, and James because I know you all have experience with these guns and they really mean something to you. Me too. I could not leave that tang screw so I made and installed a replacement with the slot properly centered.


Tony, your rifle was actually a great gift to me because it allowed me to grow my skills and experience a little more. Smylee, thank you for asking about the checkering layout because it made me have to recall my strategy.  Because I don't build a lot of 19th century guns, I don't do a lot of checkering. Consequently, I have to go slow and plan it out. This gun had an added challenge because the wrist is not symmetrical owing to cast off in the stock. My key layout tools were a Sharpie pen, a little 60 degree diamond template, calipers, a flexible plastic ruler, and pin striping. I marked the middle of the stock on top with the sharpie and the points where the sides converge. Then I marked with the Sharpie all of the points in the design using calipers and my template to lay them out.  Using the template and the ruler, I drew straight lines outlining the potential border connecting the points.  Then I used pin striping to create one master line going from the forward point on one side to the rear of the design on the bottom of the other side. Using the pin striping as a guide, I lightly scratched the line with a 60 degree Gunline checkering tool.  I removed the tape, and then repeated the same procedure from the other side making sure the end of the line on the bottom matched the other side and the intersection of the lines was centered on top. Because of the asymmetry of the sides of the wrist, one line had a slightly different arc than the other side but then, you can't see both sides at once so who cares as long as the end points match.  The checkering is not perfect but it looks hand done and not by machine. It looks like the originals.

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Marcruger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3702
Re: Late flint English rifle for Tony
« Reply #38 on: April 11, 2019, 02:17:19 AM »
Just lovely.  Fantastic work.  God Bless,   Marc

Offline smylee grouch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7908
Re: Late flint English rifle for Tony
« Reply #39 on: April 11, 2019, 03:28:53 AM »
Thanks Dave for the description of your checkering process. A lot of the time the layout is harder to do than the actual cutting in and will affect the outcome be it good or bad.

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9920
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: Late flint English rifle for Tony
« Reply #40 on: April 11, 2019, 03:29:50 AM »
Hi Folks and thanks for looking,
Let me answer some questions raised. The breech is a simple powder chamber, not a Nock breech. Here are some photos: 


The powder chamber is about 0.375" in diameter and the bottom is radiused and polished. The White Lightning vent liner is positioned at the very rear of the chamber. The mouth of the chamber is funneled. The idea is to provide the efficient powder ignition of a chambered breech, which increases the force of a given charge,  but also make it easy to clean. The 4140 steel is very tough so the breech should be very strong.  I do not believe, with modern powder, there is any significant advantage to a true Nock breech. I have not shot the gun yet so I will see if my decision is a good one.  Most English guns of that period had some form of chambered breech (not always Nock's design) so, perhaps, I will learn why when I shoot the gun.

The barrel is browned in contrast to the breech. An original English rifle from this period would have a stub twist barrel. Those barrels would be browned. the breech color case hardened or charcoal blued. I learned a lot here, mostly from some old British technical journals. I wanted the reddish brown found on those great stub twist barrels.   
I learned the color was not feasible for modern steel barrels. With twist barrels, the old makers used just 4 or 5 cycles of browning, which left a very red finish but uneven. That was not a problem because of the marbled effect of the stub twist. The uneven brown look like a feature not a bug.  On a modern steel barrels, that uneven reddish brown looks like an uneven browning.  When you do more coats of browning to even the color, you inevitably get a darker, more plum brown. I learned how to keep most of the red color during browning but it was a learning process.

JerryH, the finish is actually not that glossy. The low angle light and snow still prevalent here in Vermont  accentuates the glare in ambient light. In  neutral light, it looks very much like the semi-gloss finish on original British guns from the period.

dave
I built a Nock for my 16 bore rifle and one for Larry Pletcher to test. Larry said it averaged no faster than the others but was the most consistent, less deviation. In the 1830s W. Greener stated it gave more velocity than any design other than his (naturally)....
I would also point out that they do not work well with low grade powder which leads me to think that by 1780 the British were making better powder than most of what we shoot today...
Powder that produced flakes of fouling in the bore will not work with a Nock.
Dan



He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9920
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: Late flint English rifle for Tony
« Reply #41 on: April 11, 2019, 03:38:26 AM »
Did you try fuming the barrel rather than adding the browning solution direct to the barrel? Just wondering.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Online smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7018
Re: Late flint English rifle for Tony
« Reply #42 on: April 11, 2019, 03:59:32 AM »
Hi Dan,
Thanks for the post. It is not a Nock breech.  It has a simple powder chamber and funneled vent hole.  I did not think of fuming the barrel because I found no mention of that technique in any historical descriptions of barrel browning.  My method worked well but I also understand how the old British makers got that red color on their twist barrels. It is very simply obtained by doing only a few cycles of rusting and carding.  On a twist or patterned barrel, the thinness of the brown on the iron leaves a deep red color and they did not care that the steel was barely colored. The twist pattern obscured any uneven browning so the thin brown was a feature, not a bug.  On a modern steel barrel, a thin brown that is very red looks like an uneven brown because there is no mottled pattern in the metal to hide it. When you do more cycles to even up the color, you lose some of the redness as the brown turns more brown.

dave
« Last Edit: April 11, 2019, 01:55:03 PM by smart dog »
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline B.Barker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1394
Re: Late flint English rifle for Tony
« Reply #43 on: April 11, 2019, 05:12:43 AM »
Wow, fantastic rifle Dave! Even I would love owning that rifle and I'm not a fan of English half stocks.

Online smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7018
Re: Late flint English rifle for Tony
« Reply #44 on: April 12, 2019, 01:55:44 AM »
Thanks again everyone,
Dan, I was not blowing you off about the breech or browning.  I just needed to clarify and fuming might be an option.  I will look into it. JerryH, the same. I agree the photos look glossy in the sharp light but the gun in the flesh is more pleasing. I may post a few photos taken in neutral light when I  have good weather for it outside. Kevin (Burnt), I realize that I never really answered you and I am sorry. Thank you for your question and if you are willing to read a bit of narrative, I can answer it.  Of course there is a design and purpose to the gun.  If you ever saw the movie "Hunt for Red October" you may remember the line by Fred Thompson where he says "The Russians don't take a dump without a plan, son".  Well that characterizes me to a tee, not that I have any affinity to Soviet Russia. I always have an historical plan and objective, which is what makes creating these guns so fulfilling.  My objective for the rifle was to create a rifle of the quality of John Manton to the best of my ability. I was not going to copy any existing rifle but do the best I could to honor the work of that great man and his colleagues, and also make a rifle that suits my friend, Tony.  I decided on, what I call, the "stand up" stock often used on 19th century British guns including the Mantons.  It has a high comb, straight wrist, tall and wide butt, and slight pitch. In my opinion, they are best design ever for hunting rifles and fowlers.  So I adopted the architecture and fitted it to Tony as best I could. With respect to the decoration, there are many details.  Note, carving is gone. The precision of inletting is extremely high but the guns are pretty plain.  The silver inlays are simple and barely engraved. Note, the thumb plate is engraved but the barrel key escutcheons are not. That was typical.  The engraving is of the period. Look at the panolpy of arms on the trigger guard bow. Note there is a shield with a Union Jack design but also a smaller shield with a French fleur de lis. The gun is from 1815 so that signifies the British victory over Napoleon at Waterloo.  The bear face is purposeful.  Rifles were engraved with martial or big game hunting motifs. H. W. Mortimer often had large game animals including lions and tigers, engraved on his rifles. This is because, rifles became more popular in Britain as the empire expanded to include lands where big game hunting was more available. For Tony, a black bear might be his greatest predator challenge so it is appropriate to have a bear face on the tang. In addition, it fits the design better than a deer head.  So Kevin, I pay attention to every detail of which I am aware.

dave         
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15839
Re: Late flint English rifle for Tony
« Reply #45 on: April 12, 2019, 02:39:37 AM »
Perhaps not all British guns, at least by the mid 1800's had semi-gloss finishes. This Lang is very shiny, with it's finish.
This IS the original finish. Shellac of some form I expect.




Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Ed Wenger

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2457
Re: Late flint English rifle for Tony
« Reply #46 on: April 12, 2019, 04:09:52 AM »
Nicely done, Dave..., as usual!  Love the checkering, really nice piece.


          Ed
Ed Wenger

Offline Pukka Bundook

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3472
Re: Late flint English rifle for Tony
« Reply #47 on: April 12, 2019, 08:52:16 AM »
Dave,

One thing we do sometimes see from this period is that the lower stock -line has a break in it just behind the scroll of the guard.
A break is maybe the wrong term, it is more of an angle adjustment.. Not really a roach-belly.
I have been working on one with this feature recently,( made likely 1815 -20 or a shade later), and it  brought this  to mind.


This is Not saying that all had this feature, as plainly they did not, just another aspect  we run into from time to time.


So Very different from the 1790's!   All exciting stuff.

Online smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7018
Re: Late flint English rifle for Tony
« Reply #48 on: April 12, 2019, 03:00:30 PM »
Hi Richard,
I noticed the slight "perch belly" on some rifles and fowlers. I kind of like that.  It looks really stand up business like.  The John Mantons I used as my models were straight.  I merged their architecture with that of my original percussion shotgun because that gun fit Tony very well. It has a slightly longer wrist than most Mantons. I think the blending worked but Tony will be the real test.  What I am really happy with is if you look at photos of the lock areas and breeches on John Manton single barreled guns without stepped breeches shown in Neal and Back's "The Mantons: Gunmakers" and then Tony's rifle, if I took black and white photos of it, you could just insert them in the book and they would fit right in.

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Online smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7018
Re: Late flint English rifle for Tony
« Reply #49 on: April 12, 2019, 03:21:52 PM »
Hi,
Here is one from the book:

and mine turned to grayscale:


All I need is Mike Brooks to work his magic aging it.

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."