Author Topic: Question about recoil in smoothbores?  (Read 1483 times)

Offline R.J.Bruce

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Question about recoil in smoothbores?
« on: April 18, 2019, 07:41:57 PM »
Greetings,

I have not shot any weapon, muzzleloader or cartridge, since the early 1990's.

My only experience with smoothbores is with modern 12 gauge, single shot and pump shotguns that beat my shoulder to pieces. Never really enjoyed shooting them.

All my shooting with black powder has been with a replica Colt 1860 Army revolver, and a Golden Age Arms Company flintlock Lancaster-style longrifle in .45 caliber. Both are long gone.

My eyes were bad at 17 when I purchased the longrifle, and they have not gotten better as I have aged. Until cataract surgery with lens replacements is indicated by the ophthalmologists at the VA; I have come to the conclusion that a smoothbore might be a better fit for me than a rifle as I simply do not think it would be ethical for me to shoot at any animal, squirrel or elk, at a distance greater than 50 meters.

From everything I have learned here at ALR, the rifle only starts to truly gain an advantage over the smoothbore at distances over 40-50 meters. Do I have this correct?

I got mugged by three kids riding electric scooters on Halloween afternoon in broad daylight; with the end result that three of the tendons in my right rotator cuff suffered 50% tears, and the fourth tendon was stretched and irritated.

I am hoping that when I see my doctor in a couple of weeks, that another cortisone shot, plus additional physical therapy will allow me to avoid surgery. Fingers crossed!!!!!

As a result of the injuries suffered during the mugging, I am having to completely rethink the type of weapon I will choose to shoot when I take up black powder shooting again.

Being able to shoot both right and left-handed is going to be a necessity. The gun is also going to have to be fairly lightweight (sub- 6 pounds?), as well as capable of being equipped with a sling.

A gun with a straight comb that is fairly in line with the bore, and that will mitigate recoil, would seem to be in order. Other than the English Game Gun / English Sporting Rifle stock design; are there any American stock designs that the members here would recommend?

Being able to shoot the weapon comfortably from all field positions would be a tremendous plus. I do not believe that there will be much prone shooting in my immediate future, but being able to shoot comfortably from sitting and kneeling positions would be nice.

I am leaning towards a smoothrifle in .40 caliber,. 45 caliber, .50 caliber (37 gauge), or .52 caliber (33 gauge).

Nitro card wads, overshot card wads, fiber cushion wads, and wool wads are all available from Ballistic Products, Track of the Wolf, and Eastern Maine Shooting Supplies. Round balls can be purchased, or cast.

Although, HungryHorse is right, purchasing an inexpensive, queen-size, 100% wool blanket will allow for wayyyyyyy more wads to be cut out of it. As opposed to purchasing the same number of wads from a retail source.

Thanks for any and all answers and comments.

R.J.Bruce


Offline T*O*F

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Re: Question about recoil in smoothbores?
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2019, 08:08:16 PM »
Why not buy a PAST recoil pad.  They slide right on with elastic straps and are adjustable.  Many long range shooters use them with their snot kicker bullet guns which are equivalent to a 45-110 in recoil.  A relay is 15 shots taken 3 minutes apart and most shoot several relays with no ill effects.  They work.

I built a gun for a friend with the same problem.  I put a lot of weight in the butt and used a flat, wide buttplate so it wouldn't be nose heavy and the rearward weight balanced the gun against his shoulder.  He didn't have any strength in his trigger arm.

https://www.chuckhawks.com/past_recoil_pads.htm
Dave Kanger

A dedicated person with just a pocketknife can accomplish more than a lazy person with an entire toolbox.

Online smylee grouch

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Re: Question about recoil in smoothbores?
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2019, 08:34:11 PM »
I second the P.A.S.T recoil pad, they really do help me and I have some heavy hitters in Muzzle loaders and central fire that I can shoot with out too much of a beating.

Online rich pierce

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Re: Question about recoil in smoothbores?
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2019, 08:38:33 PM »
I disagree thereís no advantage to a rifle over a smoothbore with round ball at 40-50 yards or even 25 yards. Any load with a rifle that leaves the patches intact will hit a tennis ball off the bench at 40 yards with a rifle. Youíll have to really work up a good load to do that with a smooth rifle. If you are not shooting shot, thereís no advantage to the smooth rifle. Iíd get another .45 rifle if I were you.
St. Louis, Missouri

Online Daryl

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Re: Question about recoil in smoothbores?
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2019, 09:13:03 PM »
I agree with rich - no advantage for the smooth over the rifle, indeed, the opposite prevails in small calibres, in my opinion.

Get a rifle and use a PAST protector if needed. When I had torn cartilage (still have), I had to wear a PAST protector to shoot any rifle, which included my .69.

Even with that one, I was still able to shoot, at least the squib load of 82 or 85gr. 2F and the 482gr. ball.  I started going to the gym, working out on weights and

got to the point where I did not need the shoulder protector any more.  I did have to start out low on the weights and work up though, but as the muscle tissue grew

 stronger I was able to shoot without any discomfort until just a short while ago, it started wearing on me again.  Back to the gym again and now, no problems - again.

69 in May.



 
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: Question about recoil in smoothbores?
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2019, 11:10:35 PM »
If you look at the post re calibers, and shooting prone, I recommend and use a P.A.S.T. recoil shield/pad and it works.
.45 cal muzzleloader with 535 gr bullets and 90 gr powder  is fine when shot prone. Get the large size. 
As for the question of rifle or smoothbore;   it depends on what you intend  to do with it. Unless you are going to shoot shot, I'd go for the rifle. I hunt with my smoothbores and the accuracy is fine for that purpose at the distances I typically shoot. However, if I wanted to shoot an egg at 40 to 50 yards, my rifle can do it every time. Smoothbore....with round ball....don't count on it !

Offline G_T

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Re: Question about recoil in smoothbores?
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2019, 01:34:14 AM »
Could you shoot a flatter, earlier style buttplate, and position it a bit more on the chest (ribs) to relieve impact to the shoulder when you shoot? You'll need to change your stance to open up more towards the target as you can't swing the rifle as far across your body that way.

Gerald

Offline Nessmuck

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Re: Question about recoil in smoothbores?
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2019, 02:19:02 AM »



Send me your address....and you can borrow my old goalie mask from the early 70ís for Halloween this year....and you can supply the chainsaw, to get those little Bastids !

Offline R.J.Bruce

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Re: Question about recoil in smoothbores?
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2019, 03:01:59 AM »
Thanks for the input so far.

I had thought about a P.A.S.T. pad a while back, but knew no one that had any experience with one. This was before my injuries, and I had kinda forgotten about them. Thanks for the real life usage input!!!

I have learned to take the mostly glowing reviews on the web with a large dose of salt.

You never know if you are being told the truth, of if the reviewer is just shilling for the product being reviewed.

There is a product called Evoshield that claims to mitigate recoil. It is supposed to be a tight compression-fitting miracle fiber shirt with large pocket sewn into either the left or right shoulder/chest area.

 Into the pocket is placed a large pad of a Gel-to-Shell material that reacts to the atmosphere once it has been unsealed, hardening to a rigid protective shell.

Over a period of 10-20 minutes you are supposed to shoulder the weapon onto the pad in your normal shooting stance for 5-10 seconds, and to repeat the sequence every minute until the pad has hardened.

With the rigid pad moulded exactly to the shape of a person's shoulder, arm, the hollow between the two, and the upper chest, it is supposed to spread the force from recoil out over what looks to be approximately 24 plus square inches of the body.

It looks like an interesting idea, and I was thinking about trying it, as well as adding a P.A.S.T. pad if needed.

I appreciate all of the information, and recommendations already offered. I was also hoping for some experiences with particular stock designs. Any thoughts???

Thank You,
                    R.J.Bruce




Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Question about recoil in smoothbores?
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2019, 03:07:04 AM »
If you really read what good olí Hungry Horse had to say, you would have found out that he doesnít use any kind of wad, or patch, when shooting a round ball in a smooth bore. Just plenty of powder, an undersized ball ( and not just a little undersized either), and a chunk of greases blanket to hold it all in place. It also cuts the recoil in half too.

  Hungry Horse

Online smylee grouch

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Re: Question about recoil in smoothbores?
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2019, 03:15:18 AM »
If you should decide on buying a P.A.S.T pad try it on over your shirt so you get one with enough harness (the right size) with a little extra adjustment.

Offline R.J.Bruce

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Re: Question about recoil in smoothbores?
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2019, 05:08:32 AM »
HungryHorse
 
I should have been more specific in how I worded the OP. I got tired of typing on my phone, and was striving for brevity. I obviously forgot to include some of my thoughts. My bad.

What I meant by the wool wads was to use them as you have posted doing as a greased wad over the powder and bare ball.

 I was also referring to purchasing, by the 1000 count, the recycled 100% wool wads from Eastern Maine Shooting Supplies, and lubing them myself in a similar way as you do the cut blanket wads.

These are the least expensive wool wads I could find online, and they are fairly expensive at roughly 4-6 cents per wad, depending upon size.

Depending upon the size and cost of the blanket, I figured that you should at least be able to halve the cost the wool wads from EMSS.

I was ASSUMING (there's that tricky word) that a queen-sized blanket will yield at least several thousand wads, depending upon the bore size. I was also assuming that a heavily greased round commercial wool wad would act as your cut blanket wads do. Was I wrong in thinking this way??

Just out of curiosity, are you using square wads, or punching out round ones??

Thanks. Sorry for not completing my thoughts.

R.J.Bruce






Offline Wingshot

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Re: Question about recoil in smoothbores?
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2019, 03:38:21 PM »
Iím new here but feel I can contribute on this topic. Iíve had or have shot many different bores of muzzleloaders, rifled and smooth. I 100% agree that a .45 cal. Rifle would be the best match for your current physical and visual limitations. A little time spent at the range doing a load work up will provide you with a reliable ďtack driverĒ. Smoothbores are a different kettle of fish in my opinion. Although there is terrific fun to be had, thereís a learning curve that requires many hours at the range shooting from hunting type positions to burn sight pictures in your brain if thereís any hope of harvesting big game in an ethical and humane manner. Iíve taken whitetail out to 80 yards with a .62 smoothie and it is an absolute hammer. I spent the first year and half just getting intimate with that Tulle before I dared to post on a deer stand. Get a .45 if your state laws permit and enjoy the ride!

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Question about recoil in smoothbores?
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2019, 07:21:34 PM »
R.J.;

 Forget queen sized blankets because the military doesnít use them. Good old army surplus 100% wool blankets used are pretty cheap. I cut my wads with a repurposed hole saw with the pilot bit removed, and the teeth ground off, and the edge sharpened. Just fold the blanket so you get three or four wads per cut, and go for it.

  Hungry Horse

Offline Brokennock

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Re: Question about recoil in smoothbores?
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2019, 03:44:09 PM »
I find the recoil in both my 20 gauge smoothbore guns to be less than that of cartridge shotguns, my heavy turkey hunting load might be comparable when shot from my Tule Fusil des Chase.

I think a Type G trade gun will give you the stock design and overall weight you're looking for. You'd just have to add sling attachments or use a sling that slips over the butt and ties to the front stock/barrel.

Offline Nessmuck

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Re: Question about recoil in smoothbores?
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2019, 05:34:25 PM »
I find the recoil in both my 20 gauge smoothbore guns to be less than that of cartridge shotguns, my heavy turkey hunting load might be comparable when shot from my Tule Fusil des Chase.

I think a Type G trade gun will give you the stock design and overall weight you're looking for. You'd just have to add sling attachments or use a sling that slips over the butt and ties to the front stock/barrel.

Can you share your heavy Turkey load ? Thanks in your Tulle

Offline Mauser06

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Re: Question about recoil in smoothbores?
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2019, 07:37:13 PM »
I don't think rifled vs smooth makes a difference in recoil.


Stock design, weigh of the gun, the load etc all play into recoil. 


The only time I'd purposely choose a smoothbore is if I wanted to shoot shot from the gun.   A certain degree of accuracy can be obtained from a smoothbore but if that's acceptable to you or not I don't know.   I've hunted with a smooth rifle 62cal the past 2 years.  I've killed deer with it.  But I've also passed one some due to it's limitations and I've hit a couple higher than I've aimed...which isn't like me especially at the ranges they were....I've noticed that every now and again on the range I get a weird unexplainable flyer I can't explain.  I think that's just the smoothbore. 

Offline Brokennock

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Re: Question about recoil in smoothbores?
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2019, 09:21:01 PM »
I find the recoil in both my 20 gauge smoothbore guns to be less than that of cartridge shotguns, my heavy turkey hunting load might be comparable when shot from my Tule Fusil des Chase.

I think a Type G trade gun will give you the stock design and overall weight you're looking for. You'd just have to add sling attachments or use a sling that slips over the butt and ties to the front stock/barrel.

Can you share your heavy Turkey load ? Thanks in your Tulle

In order of placement, 80 grains 3f, 2 thin cards (sold as "overshot  cards"), lubbed ball of shredded jute or sisal rope (like tow), paper shot  cup/cartridge with the twisted and tied end down and the flat end unfolded and trimmed off (see my post at the other forum on making these) filled with 1 1/4 oz #5 shot, held in with 2 more overshot cards.

I've shot roundball from both 20 gauge smoothbore guns and a rifled .62, I notice more recoil with the rifle, I think it's the extra dwell time created by additional friction in the bore.

Offline kudu

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Re: Question about recoil in smoothbores?
« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2019, 06:56:30 PM »
well my first comment is I don't know how bad your eyes are.

BUTT,  I really would lean towards a Rifle I shoot alot and would have to agree that hitting a baseball size target at 50 yards with a Smooth bore is Tough!

Recoil can be really low if you have a 40 cal. rifle.

I built a 40.cal Rice barreled rifle for my girlfriend it has a 3/4 across the flats barrel 38" long. The Rifle weights 5# 6oz. Total.
She is slightly handicap having only One Leg But she shoots well. And the Rifle shoots great about a 1-3/4 group at 50 yards.

Lastly and Most important I Think a Express Type sight is your Key to further shooting FUN.  A shallow VEE with a Gold/Brass  bead front should work.

If I could Draw a picture of the sight I would.

Offline R.J.Bruce

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Re: Question about recoil in smoothbores?
« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2019, 08:43:36 PM »
Thanks for all the replies to date!!!

Kudu,

I cannot find my last eye prescription. My prescription does not register on the 20/20 eye chart. If it did, it would be below 20/400, with significant astigmatism in the right eye, and moderate astigmatism  in the left eye.

My annual eye exam is in June, and I will see what the doctor's have to say about my cataracts at that time.

What are the pros and cons of a peep/ghost ring rear sight mounted on the tang of the breechplug, versus the express sight mounted out on the barrel? For people like me with poor eyesight?

I was considering asking Lowell Harrer to fabricate one of his ghost ring rear sights with a thick enough lollipop that could be drilled and tapped for 7/32"-40 threads that would  then accept all commonly available aperture disc inserts.

What are your thoughts on that versus the express sight?

Thanks,
              R.J.Bruce

P.S.,
        What style of rifle was that you built for your girlfriend? Any pics?
                  Thanks
« Last Edit: April 22, 2019, 08:54:05 PM by R.J.Bruce »

Offline kudu

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Re: Question about recoil in smoothbores?
« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2019, 10:50:46 PM »
well first let me say im not a optometrist

As far as a rear peep on the tang/ As long as you can see thru it, even if it is .125 1/8 dia. and then see some type of BEAD on the front of the barrel. your  eye will "self" center everything. get the BEAD on the target and Squeeze the trigger.

A note: most "Serious competitions" wont allow a peep on the REAR unless your shooting Bench rest Unlimited, and some Cross Stick Matches.  Therefore I listed my first option the shallow VEE and BEAD

But I think your shooting for the fun of it- Woodswalks local matches and stuff so??

My  suggestion would also be if you go with the Tang option get the front Bead sight up "High" above the plane of the barrel .312 5/16 aint too much. youll see it up there in the AIR above the Barrel

ORR look at the Brownells web sight and get a "Fire sight" From Williams Gunsight. (YES I KNOW IT AINT HISTORICALLY CORRECT) fiber optic red or green FRONT Bead sight.

The front sight is what you need to SEE,(The Target Also) - a notch or hole at the back of the gun just centers every thing for a good Reference, and repeatability even a wide Square Block Type/ rear Notch sight is ok even if its quit wide.

One Last thing you can make you some sights even out of wood paint them FLAT BLACK to try out on a broom handle move the rear sight up and down the broom handle to experiment. Try a small washer as a peep.
Just make sure they are NOT SHINY

Also my target guns I lighty Sand Blast the Outside of the barrel then "Really Rust brown" the barrel for a Glare free sight Plane. It Makes a world of difference to me nothing Shiny on the Gun Nice And dull I think in helps on Heat Mirage also. Ive got some really strange looks when I pulled out a Roll Of CLOTH electricians Tape and run a Strip between the front and rear sight to help combat a fuzzy sight picture from a warm barrel and bright sun. Some guys on the Line use Shades (plastic pipe, tin etc.) if allowed.

By All means DON'T GIVE UP,  Try any thing you can and dont count a .40 cal out or even a odd ball .38
out. I shot a really big 8 point Buck with the  40 cal Flintlock and 50 grains of 3fff at about 45 yards.
 
At least youll be shooting and not sitting around counting the days till the last "round up"

Online Daryl

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Re: Question about recoil in smoothbores?
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2019, 08:27:38 PM »
The bottom 3 pictures are my .69's sights. I am going to have to increase the size of the bead on the front sight as it is getting hard to see now, too small
but- you get the idea. Brass is really good, as a rub with the thumb brightens it up to shine in dull light.



















Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline R.J.Bruce

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Re: Question about recoil in smoothbores?
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2019, 11:54:26 PM »
Thanks for the images Daryl.

I can recall seeing all of your drawings and sight picture images in previous posts, but I do not remember seeing that last image of the actual sight on the barrel.

It is amazing how wrong I can sometimes be when trying to conceptualize in my mind what someone else has tried to describe in words.

The actual sight on the barrel only vaguely resembles what I was imagining.

Thanks for clarifying  that up for me.

How large in diameter is the brass "bead" on the sight in the last image??

How much larger in diameter do you think you will have to make your new sight in order for you to be able to see it??

Any suggestions as to a starting place for the diameter of a brass bead for someone like me with poor eyesight??

Regards,
                 R.J.Bruce

Online Daryl

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Re: Question about recoil in smoothbores?
« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2019, 08:11:03 PM »
The tapered bead on the .69's 31" bl. is .070".
The tapered bead on the .50's 48" bl. is .120".
.120" would be too large for the .69, however, .090" would likely be about perfect for my eyes now.
The .120" bead diameter would be to large for the short barrel for target shooting, but would be a great hunting front sight.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline kudu

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front sight?
« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2019, 09:16:23 PM »
they make these in 3/32 also .093
see if you can get the "link"


https://williamsgunsight.com/product/williams-gold-bead-streamlined-front-sights-narrow/