Author Topic: Tool to remove hammer  (Read 2344 times)

KILTED COWBOY

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Tool to remove hammer
« on: April 23, 2019, 08:11:25 PM »
I am having trouble finding a square punch to fit to knock hammer out.
Was going to make one out of a brass rod.
One of my coworkers had an idea to find a longer bolt that fits the threads, screw that in and tap it out that way.
What do y'all think? Easier that grinding a round rod square. Or would it potentially cause damage?
Opinions?
Thanks

Flycaster1977

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Re: Tool to remove hammer
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2019, 08:21:23 PM »
It shouldnt be that difficult. A round punch will work. It should only take a few taps

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Tool to remove hammer
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2019, 08:24:33 PM »
I’d stay far away from threading a long rod to fit the tumbler then whacking it. Chance of it snapping off in the threaded hole.

How hard is it to file a square end on a round brass rod?  Or use a round punch that just fits?
Andover, Vermont

KILTED COWBOY

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Re: Tool to remove hammer
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2019, 08:27:30 PM »
I did have a round punch that fit ok rapped that thing a few times and it did not budge. This is a new chambers colonial lock.
I was afraid I was going to bugger it up. Guess I will make the square punch and whack the $#*! out of it.

Offline G_T

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Re: Tool to remove hammer
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2019, 08:52:58 PM »
2# brass hammer. Brass punch that just fits in the square hole. Round is ok. Put lock plate on jaws of solid vise or bench blocks so the tumbler can fall through. Tap away. Solid support is more important than hitting it hard. If it gives under a hit, the energy isn't going into moving the tumbler but into moving the support.

Gerald

KILTED COWBOY

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Re: Tool to remove hammer
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2019, 09:13:14 PM »
Gerald thanks for the advice. I may not have been supporting it correctly to transfer the energy.
That's why I love y'all. No question too small to get feedback on.
Y'all save us rookies lots of $ not breaking things if we are smart enough to ask.
Thanks everyone.  Enjoying finishing this rifle, but i cannot wait to shoot it.
I have not smelt black powder since the 70's. The 1970's that is . Old, but not that old

Offline Ky-Flinter

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Re: Tool to remove hammer
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2019, 09:19:06 PM »
KC,

Forgive me for asking this, but you have removed all the internal parts of the lock except the tumbler, right?

Also, don't be tempted to use a small punch that fits down in the tumbler screw hole.  Jim Chambers cautions against this.  Good way to break the tumbler.

-Ron
Ron Winfield

Life is too short to hunt with an ugly gun. -Nate McKenzie

KILTED COWBOY

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Re: Tool to remove hammer
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2019, 09:32:00 PM »
Yes, all parts removed except the tumbler. Thanks.
Yes the punch I have did fit inside square hole and on outside of the threaded tumbler, but i was afraid it did not make enough contact and i dont want to bugger it up.
Another question, when reversing and installing the tumbler, will it need to be pressed back in the hammer?

Offline Tim Crosby

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Re: Tool to remove hammer
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2019, 09:35:47 PM »
 Isn't this the same question as this:

  http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=54149.msg541787#msg541787

 Only worded differently?

  Tim C.

KILTED COWBOY

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Re: Tool to remove hammer
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2019, 09:46:18 PM »
I started this topic regarding using a screw to tap out the tumbler.
Sorry if I broke a rule and should have used the original thread.

Offline G_T

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Re: Tool to remove hammer
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2019, 10:15:10 PM »
I press the hammer on the tumbler by thumb to get it well started. Then I place the hammer flat down on a bench block with something non-marring in between. I use paper towels. Then I use a brass hammer, one pound is fine, to tap the tumbler into the hammer. Patience rather than big whacks is better. Go straight and check to make sure it is going straight. You don't want to accidentally distort the square hole in the hammer.

You can also press it on using the jaws of a vise, again protecting the finish of the hammer. But I prefer tapping it on. YMMV.

Locks as they come from the manufacturer often do not have the hammer all the way seated. How far you want it is your decision. I do not like a huge gap between the hammer and the lock plate. You might find that you need to shorten the square section of the tumbler, or even migrate it, to get the gap you would like to have whatever that might be. I like the square shaft to come to just a hair short of flush with the surface of the hammer, for maximum engagement.

More seated is more solid. Fully seated is most solid. But if you get slop, fully seated gives you nowhere to go so then you need to tighten up the hole in the hammer, which you can do.

If you have slop where the tumbler can move in-out more than a hair when the bridle is installed but not the rest of the mechanism, you either need to fix that or make sure the hammer can clear the side of the lock plate and any protruding screw tips no matter how the tumbler settles in. I've seen enough slop that a fly could potentially get jammed in the gap! That's the point where you HAVE to fix it!

Others may give you other advise. Listen to them!

Gerald

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Tool to remove hammer
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2019, 10:24:55 PM »
It’s fine, no worries. I let the tumbler screw pull the cock down onto the tumbler.
Andover, Vermont

Offline G_T

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Re: Tool to remove hammer
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2019, 10:36:50 PM »
If the screw can pull the cock down it might be a little less than fully snug. You are putting unnecessary wear on the threads of a screw which is a retention screw and not an installation device. Did you lube the screw first? If so that is better for the threads, but worse for the screw staying tight during use. You'll potentially distort the screw slot from the applied torque which is then a visible mark of poor workmanship. You can mar the cock where the screw sits.You might snap the threads even. IMHO... I wouldn't do it that way.

Gerald

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Tool to remove hammer
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2019, 11:19:36 PM »
I wouldn't use the screw to force the hammer back onto the tumbler square either.  Too much of a chance of either stripping the screw, or snapping the screw off inside the hole.  I use my vise jaws, padded with the inside surface of abrasive cloth, of which there is always lots laying around on my bench top.
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Offline rich pierce

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Re: Tool to remove hammer
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2019, 11:27:20 PM »
Will follow this going forward. Otherwise might find myself on Toulouse street.
Andover, Vermont

Turtle

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Re: Tool to remove hammer
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2019, 01:08:27 AM »
 I find that when using the tumbler screw to pull the hammer tight, you need to retighten the screw after some shooting. If you don't, it wears the fit of the square hole.

Mikecooper

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Re: Tool to remove hammer
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2019, 03:29:18 AM »
a wood dowel will work,  cut it square on the end to fit the hole. 

Offline Eric Krewson

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Re: Tool to remove hammer
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2019, 03:58:53 PM »
Make a tumbler catcher, I had to write what it was so I didn't throw it away when I cleaned off my workbench.






Offline Craig Wilcox

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Re: Tool to remove hammer
« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2019, 04:38:59 PM »
I have a nice set of roll pin installation punches - they have a hole drilled in the tip for installing various size roll pins.

One of then is perfectly sized to pop the tumbler off - the round part fits snugly in the square cock hole, while the hollow part does not touch the threads at all.  The next size up taps the cock into place over the square tumbler end. Gently does it at all times.
Craig Wilcox
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Offline sqrldog

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Re: Tool to remove hammer
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2019, 04:44:30 PM »
L&R Lock Co. sells a set of tools to remove and replace a hammer. They are rather pricey but should work.

Offline Long John

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Re: Tool to remove hammer
« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2019, 04:59:24 PM »
I guess I am stupid.  All these years I just assumed that the lock makers simply put the cock on without much attention to fitting so it wouldn't get lost and that it was MY JOB, as the gun-maker, to fit the cock onto the tumbler so that it was snug.  When I say snug I mean that there is no rotational play once assembled.

When assembling a lock I make sure that the cock fits snug onto the tumbler without the need for hammers, vices or other tools before I remove the cock and case-harden it.  A cock should be filed with the requisite care to make sure it fits - the tumble screw is there to keep the cock from falling off.

When disassembling an assembled, purchased lock I use a brass punch and a block very much like Eric showed you.  The punch took about 5 minutes to make.  I've made several as I have used many different locks over the years.  A couple light taps with a 1/2 lb. hammer is all that it normally takes.  If it takes more than that to dislodge a tumbler someone did not fit it to the tumbler properly.  When the cock is ready to case-hard it fits onto the tumbler with thumb pressure, only, and with no rotational slop once in place.  In my opinion, for what little it might be worth, if you can't do that the lock is not done proper.

I know - I'm stupid.  I'm also 70.

Best Regards,

JMC
John Cholin

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Tool to remove hammer
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2019, 05:14:45 PM »
From what I see, John, the lock assemblers simply use whatever force is necessary to seat the as-cast cock onto the as-cast tumbler shank. And thus heroics are sometimes required to unseat the cock from the tumbler shank. I follow your approach, to make the process “normal” going forward.
Andover, Vermont

Offline G_T

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Re: Tool to remove hammer
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2019, 05:42:52 PM »
Some thoughts on this.

I like to see the square section have a very slight taper; ditto the mating hole in the hammer. Yes these should be carefully fit. They certainly don't come well fit from the manufacturers, just pressed on far enough to stick. Take it off and start to put it back on, and wiggle on each axis. Chances are that it is firm on one set of flats and sloppy on the other. That should be fixed / fitted, and done in such a way that the hammer naturally seats square to the tumbler shaft.

When seated the hammer should be solidly snug. This is much like putting a chuck on a drillpress arbor. It is solidly there, but removable. The bit of metal compression allows friction to transfer the loads and there is no motion under load. Morse tapers, many milling collet systems, etc, use this method. The cock screw doesn't take any of the load and is mostly an insurance policy.

If the cock doesn't have at least a bit of a tension fit on the shaft, then the cycling and shock loads are going to wiggle the hammer. There is a decent bit of non-steady torque on that joint. If the hammer is not rather firmly seated the screw is not an insurance policy but is instead the retention device because otherwise your hammer WILL come loose. In the process of coming loose it will begin to distort and wear the metal as the corners will be taking the whole load. Over time you'll have to put the cock on deeper to keep it secure enough. You'll also have to be checking that screw frequently. Not the way I'd set up a mechanism!

Putting too much taper on the square can also make it not stay secure. Think shallow taper like morse tapers so it is self-holding, not self-releasing.

Gerald

Offline David R. Pennington

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Re: Tool to remove hammer
« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2019, 06:57:21 PM »
Wow, I’ve never had one that tight. I ground a little punch from an old cut nail to fit in the screw hole. I cradle the lock less bridle in left hand and hold punch with fore finger and thumb of same hand. A couple taps with a very light hammer and tumbler is free and all parts are in my left palm.
VITA BREVIS- ARS LONGA

Offline Pete G.

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Re: Tool to remove hammer
« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2019, 07:12:17 PM »
I find that when using the tumbler screw to pull the hammer tight, you need to retighten the screw after some shooting. If you don't, it wears the fit of the square hole.

The tumbler screw is not hard enough to seat the cock and will strip the threads. I'll bet you can figure out how I know that. :-\