Scaled down Carolina Trade Gun

[R.J.Bruce]

I think that I have finally made up my mind.

Because of my shoulder issues, I have decided to settle on something in the neighborhood of a .40 caliber.

While I realize that a rifle has superior accuracy, I have decided to go with a smoothbore instead. At some point I would like to hunt turkeys, and there are not many states that allow a rifle to be used for turkey hunting.

I cannot afford more than one gun, so a smoothbore has to be it.

I am also going to go with a flintlock instead of a percussion. I will just have to work extra hard on the flinch I developed from exploding that open jar of black powder in my face as a teenager. I just do not have any feelings for the style of the percussion lock versus the flintlock.

So, I have decided on a .410 bore barrel, 67.3 gauge, 0.410" bore diameter. This will allow me to shoot bare ball with a lubricated wool blanket wad, using a 0.380" diameter Lee, 2-cavity mould.

Linen patched round balls can be shot using a 0.405" diameter mould from BallMoulds.com in the U.K.

Ballistic Products has a variety of .410 bore plastic wads; as well as 0.125" maxi nitro card wads, 0.070" mini nitro card wads, 0.030"-0.040" overshot card wads, 0.125" cork wads, 0.250" fiber wads, and 0.500" fiber cushion wads.

Track of the Wolf has Circle Fly, .410 bore, 0.125" nitro card wads, 0.025" overshot card wads, and 0.500" fiber cushion wads.

Midsouth Shooter's Supply has the best price on Eastern Maine Shooter's Supply, recycled wool, Grey Smoke felt wads, per 1000 ct. These will suffice until I stsrt making my own wads.

Buffalo Arms Company  has a press-mounted wad punch that will accommodate up to a 0.125 inch thick material.

Now, I just have to get in touch with Mr. Bobby Hoyt to inquire about a .410 bore barrel, using Mike Brooks' 47.375" long barrel length. If my calculations on paper are correct, such a barrel should result  in a sub-6 pound gun.

What I have in mind is a barrel measuring thus:

Breech:  0"-11" long x 0.008" of taper per 1" of the barrel's length--threaded 9/16"-18 × 0.500" deep

0.784"-0.760" across the flats octagon x 3.000" long
0.760"-0.740" across the flats hexadecagonal x 2.500" long
0.740"-0.696" diameter x 5.500" long

Forebarrel:  11"-43" long x 0.003" of taper per 1" of the barrel's length
                     
0.696"-0.600" diameter x 32" long

Flared Muzzle:  43"-47.374" long x 0.016" of taper per 1" of the barrel's length-- radius crown

0.600"-0.652488" diameter x 4.374" long

Barrel Wall Thickness:

0.184996" thick at the beginning of the bore---0.501" from the breech
0.095" thick at the end of the forebarrel---43" from the breech
0.121244" thick at the muzzle---47.374" from the breech0

Sorry for the long preamble!! I am one of THOSE guys that has to try and figure everything out in my head@!!!

How scaled down will a stock.have to be to fit such a slim barrel??
What size will the butt be??
Do I go with a R.E.Davis lock, or try to obtain one of the unbridled ones that the man working for Jim Chambers was producing?? I cannot remember his name.
English walnut, American walnut, beech, or maple0??

Jason at Rice Barrels said that they will only do a jug choke on a new barrel. I forgot to ask him if they will do a jug choke on someone else's new barrel.

Thanks for your patience with this long post, as well as your responses!!

R.J.Bruce

[smylee grouch]

JMHO but I think you will be disappointed with the shot performance on turkey with that small bore. Not saying that it will not get the job done but I think your success will be spotty with only slightly better results on tree rats.     Just not much shot to work with.

[R.J.Bruce]

Smylee Grouch

     My reasoning for a .410 bore Fowler is thus:

I am 3 days away from turning 65 years old. My weight is slowly going down as I struggle with a lifetime of compulsive overeating. The results of that disorder are that I have been overweight, obese, or morbidly obese for the second half of my life, 33 years. I am at this minute approximately 240 pounds, 75 pounds over my supposed normal weight.

As a result of the 33 years of obesity, my upper body strength is minimal. My lower body strength is improving as a result of all the walking that I am doing; as well as a program that I am in for veterans that want to improve their risk from falling as they age.

Co-sponsored by the University of Maryland Medical School and the Baltimore VA; it is an attempt to improve one's posture, stance, gait, balance, flexibility, core strength, and peripheral vision to try to avoid veterans from injuring themselves in a fall.

I am considered to be high functioning, as I DO NOT YET REQUIRE a cane, walker, motorized cart, or any other aid to helping me walk. Even so, I was astonished at how many deficiencies that I had when I started the study about 6 weeks ago. I am already seeing a marked improvement as I learn to THINK about how I walk, how I stand, etc.

With the likelihood of rotator cuff surgery on my right shoulder looming in the very near future, I must consider a small bore, low recoiling weapon as I return to black powder after a 22 year absence. Anything larger than .45 caliber is simply out of the question, at least for the next 3-5 years.

One of the primary reasons that I have decided on a .410 bore barrel is the large number of wad choices, both tradtional, and modern. This speaks to the .410's popularity and versatility as regards to modern cartridge shooting; and it is my assertion that as a black powder fowler a .410 has the likelihood as being equally versatile.

As a result of my poor eyesight (discussed on another thread), as well as my health, slowly but steadily improving; I have made several decisions that are ABSOLUTE with me.

First, is that if I decide to hunt, I will purchase rangefinding binoculars; so that I will be able to glass for game animals, but also so that I can know EXACTLY what the distance is between me and the animal in question.

Second, is that I WILL NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES take a shot at any size animal beyond a range of 50 meters. Period. With my eyes as they are now I do not feel that it would be ETHICAL to shoot beyond 50 meters, and my reality may dictate that my maximum range be even shorter.

When I start hunting again, I will accept my situation as it IS, and thank GOD for the opportunity to again do so!!!!!!!!!!

Posts by Hungry Horse, Daryl, and BritSmoothy over in the U.K.; have shown that a small bore Fowler can be very effective at ranges that most people do not think that they are capable of. There is a steel shot plastic wad that I believe has the possibility  of REALLY extending the range of a .410 smoothbore. It holds in excess of 1 ounce of lead shot. As far as round balls go, a .405 caliber ball with a linen patch weighs in at 100 grains; as opposed to 83 grains fo a .380 caliber ball shooting bare ball with a wad to hold it in place.I figure that I have at least a year of steady experimenting before I can pull the trigger on any game animal.

Finally, we as modern hunters have been conditioned by advertising and society to feel that BIGGER IS BETTER!!!!!

Twenty-six of the 50 states allow hunting with .40 caliber or smaller black powder weapons. Actually, 2 states have no caliber restrictions as to minimum size, 1 state is .36 caliber minimum, 2-3 states are .38 caliber minimum, and the remaining 20-21 states are .40 caliber minimum.

This leads me to believe that a .410 smoothbore, ethically used, should be truly effective on all game animals up to whitetail deer and mule deer.

Like Richard Mann says, "It's All About The Shot!!!!!!"

Thanks for your concern. I really appreciate the level-headed discourse here at ALR

Regards,
                R.J.BRUCE

[bob in the woods]

Now I'm going to throw something out for you to consider, having read your decision process . Since accuracy is a prime concern , you might want to think about straight rifling .  Definitely an aid to shooting patched round balls, and not really detrimental to using shot. 

[rich pierce]

Sometimes folks think that caliber determines recoil. It sure does with round ball. But with shot, a half ounce of shot is going to kick the same as a .54 (or is it .58) round ball at the same velocity whether it’s coming out of a .32 smoothbore or a 10 gauge, assuming equal gun weight. A half ounce or 5/8 ounce or 3/4 ounce of shot does not care what size bore it’s being shot from, so far as recoil is concerned.

[smylee grouch]

RJ-good luck with all your health issues, it sounds as though you are at least going in the right direction health wise. I and many others are in worse shape than you the way it sounds but can still comfortably shoot larger bores if loaded right. My biggest concern with your small bore would be the small shot volume patterns at hunting ranges,food for thought if you want ethical killing shots. JMHO

[Huntschool]

One of the primary reasons that I have decided on a .410 bore barrel is the large number of wad choices, both tradtional, and modern. This speaks to the .410's popularity and versatility as regards to modern cartridge shooting; and it is my assertion that as a black powder fowler a .410 has the likelihood as being equally versatile.

I need to make a coment here regarding the above statement.....The 410's popularity is as a "pop gun" and nothing more.... Most major sporting clays and skeet shooters refer to it as an idiot stick and hold no regard for it as to field performnce.  It is a professional shooters gun as to efficency and performance.  The shot load based on true ballistics is terrible at best.  Guys who shoot thousand of skeet and sporting trget per year carry a noteably lower average with the .410 then the 28 gauge.....  Its nowhere near a highly popular efficient bore campared to say a 28.  There are folks who shoot preserve birds with success with a 410 but as to wild birds..... thats another story. Yes, the 410 sees some duty as a starter gun for kids as to its lower recoil but most will tell you it really is an experts gun. I dont care who says otherwise unless they have extensive target records to back them up.  I have been at this shotgun thing long enough to know.....

My suggestion would be a 28 gauge..... better shot to load (ie. squar load) performance.

y the way.....  I live in Illinois and our lower limit on ML's for deer is .45.....

[R.J.Bruce]

Huntschool

                    I"ll be honest and state that my choices in the end came down to a .410 bore and a 28 gauge. The .410 is leading in the selection process simply because I am not really factoring wing shooting into the equation.

If you looked at my past accomplishments with firearms, they would be listed pistol, rifle, and shotgun; with shotgun a distant third. Since shooting at stationary targets is not really emphasized with modern cartridge shotguns, all I have ever used one for was moving targets in the air, both live and manmade. I was not very good at it, to say the least.

Of the several thousand shots that I have taken, mostly skeet and trap, my best guess would be that I had roughly a 5-10 percent success rate, and I am probably being generous with the assessment.

RichPierce
                   Your comments about the weight of the shot column are right on point. It's like the old parable, "What weighs more, a pound of feathers or a pound of lead?" My thinking is that the smaller the hole in the barrel, the less likely I would be to try and over stuff that hole.

Bob in the Woods,
                                 What barrel maker's execute straight rifling?? I know nothing about it.

Thanks for all the responses,
                                                    R.J.BRUCE

[Mike Brooks]

I would go with a 28 bore. Use my barrel pattern for a start, keep the barrel at 1" at the breech and give it a pretty rapid taper. tell Hoyt you want it to end up at about 3 1/4lbs which will give you a 6lb gun when it's done. I had one of these and it shot exceptional patterns with 1oz loads and 70gr powder. The tiny breech you are planning on this .410 will make the architecture impossible with these big 6" English locks you want to use. If you stick with this .410 thing you should consider using Chambers Queen Anne pistol lock.
BTW, I don't predict great results with the gun the way you have it planned, you'll not carry enough shot load to pattern well past 20 yards. If you increase the shot load you'll have to increase the powder to keep the velocity up which is going to give you the recoil you're trying to avoid. At that point you might as well go with a bigger bore.
 Or, you could just do it your way which is generally what happens in situations like this.

[bob in the woods]

Many of the custom barrel makers offer straight rifling.  Just ask.  A friend who has a gun with such a barrel claims that it eliminates the "flyers" that occur when shooting round balls in a smoothbore. His is a .54 / 28 bore   based on the Chambers smooth rifle pattern

[Pukka Bundook]

RJ,

I do not want to appear "ganging up on you", but a few hundred years of fowling pieces has shown us what works best, even for children's and ladies guns.
A nice light (say 5 lb) in say 20 bore will not knock your socks off, and will shoot a better pattern than a .410 most every time.  Yes, there can be exceptions, but penetration is also quite a bit less with the smaller bores. 

I am only telling you this to save you some grief, and not because there is anything in it for me. 
 As someone mentioned up the page, a light load will work better in a larger bore, than a heavier load in a smaller bore.
If you look at antique sporting guns, they come very rarely below say 22 bore.

Good luck whatever you choose, and all the best,

Richard.

[T*O*F]

.40 smoothbore I made for a man with the same problem.  Nuff said!

[Marcruger]

I am a bit surprised that the ethics of wounding animals that run off to die hasn't been more thoroughly discussed here.   

I personally don't know of anyone who hunts turkeys with a .410....modern shot loadings included.  All of the hunters I know use hot-rodded 12 gauges. 

While you have limitations, I cannot see that those justify firing a light charge of shot at a turkey.  The way you will find out it doesn't work is by wounding animals needlessly.  They lose as you experiment. 

You also noted that you'd be shooting 50 yards or under?  Who blackpowder shoots turkeys at 50 yards, even with a 12 gauge?  And you are proposing a .410? 

You noted that, "This leads me to believe that a .410 smoothbore, ethically used, should be truly effective on all game animals up to whitetail deer and mule deer."

I hate to sound harsh, but I think a personal ethics check is in order.  Perhaps with close ranges and expert shot placement you can use a .410 on a mule deer.  You are talking about a 100 grain roundball.  That is not much weight, and it'll shed velocity quickly.  I think a .410 would be better used on squirrels with shot. 

I am all for staying in the shooting game, but not experimenting on living animals.  Put yourself in their shoes. 

[Mike Brooks]

Animals don't wear shoes.....

[T*O*F]

Animals don't wear shoes.....

Horses do.  How many of them get shot each year after being mistaken for an elk by eastern hunters?

[flinchrocket]

I think 20ga. is minimum for turkey in most states.

[bob in the woods]

Ha Ha !   Dave,  that reminds of when a group of moose "hunters"  shot one of my uncles cows some years back.
They were dressing it out [ and doing a rather poor job of it ]  when he came upon them.  Very expensive lesson on their part ! 

[Huntschool]

R.J.Bruce

Frankly, if you shot a shotgun in the 5-10% range on even trap..... you have a gun and perhaps a shooting perception problem.  I would say, because of your pistol and rifle stationary target background, you were "spot shooting" your flying targets.  That dont work.....  Ya have to move the gun and shoot where the target is going not where it is when ya pull the trigger.....  I realize your intent and perhaps your need for lighter recoil although I am not in your physical medical position.  Nuff about that.....

Listen to Mike Brooks.  He has the right idea.  I further believe that a 20 ga with the right loading will work but as you seem so concerned with recoil the 28 will likely be better.

There is also what Marcruger posted about ethics in the hunting field to be considered.......

I wish you luck in this endevor but I really have to wonder what the end result will be for you.

[JW]

I haven’t shot a 410 since I was a kid, but I did have a 28 gauge trade gun with a 3 ½ lbs. or so, 47-inch barrel (recently had to sell to pay some bills). Even with a .54 round ball, I can’t say I noticed recoil. I’m sure if you patched tightly and shot 100 grain charges it might kick a bit, but you can get great accuracy with minimal charges and a bare ball (or chewed ball) in a 28. I’m a younger man, so don’t take my word for what constitutes reasonable kick and weight… However, I’ve got an old rotator cuff injury and my 28 never gave it a bother regardless of what I put in it.

[fahnenschmied]

Having such a thick barrel at the muzzle would somewhat defeat the idea of having a lightweight gun.  .060 would be plenty heavy.  I have never seen any old gun with such a small bore and long barrel.  Ive seen quite a few old smoothbores for the South American market, the smallest seem to be in the 50 -54 caliber range with tubes three to three and a half feet.  Of course, much of that is due to the time period.  If you were making a 3/4 scale gun, 410 would make sense, but you can buy .28 gauge wads in wide variey, and your gun won't look like it is starving to death, and if you make the barrel with an authentic thickness, it would be lighter than the barrel you propose.

[Tommy Bruce]

First of all R.J. congratulations on making lifestyle changes to improve the quality of your life.  Regardless of the gun you choose, that's a win in anyone's book.  You are an inspiration. 

Back to the gun, I love the Carolina guns, Mike made one for me a couple of years ago in 20 ga. and the recoil is pretty mild.  I'd agree with most folks who are suggesting a 28 ga. as well but in the end, you know your abilities and limits better than anyone on the board.
You may check this one out as well, : https://claysmithguns.com/Boys_Bumford.htm

Best of luck in your purchase and decision. 

 

[R.J.Bruce]

Thanks for all of the responses thus far, they are greatly appreciated. One of the things I most appreciate about this site is the straight talk one gets,  even at the risk of having your sensitive, delicate, baby boy feelings hurt!! (Tounge-in-cheek)

Sometimes one's best ideas aren't so good after all.

After several days to reflect, as well as to do some research;.I am going to go with the collective wisdom here on ALR, and have changed my mind to a 28 gauge barrel.

As far as my ethics are concerned, in the past I have NEVER pulled the trigger on any game animal, regardless of size, where I was not able to clearly see it, as well as be certain of killing it.

In my above post I suspect that my language was not clear as to my intentions. The 50 meter maximum distance that I am allotting myself, is just that, a maximum distance that I will EVER contemplate shooting at an animal. In order for that to happen, a lot of things would have to come together for me to pull the trigger at 50 meters/yards.

First, I would have to clearly see what I was shooting at; and with the current state of my eyesight, that is NOT going to happen any time soon. So, my self imposed maximum distance is going to be 25-30 meters/yards. The only way I could shoot at the 50 meter distance at this time is with a telescopic sight, and flintlocks look kinda funny with scopes on them@!!!

If my cataracts develop to the point that lens replacement surgery is an option, then perhaps the 50 meter distance would be back on the table.

What this means is that I am going to have to truly hunt, NOT just stand off at a great distance and pull the trigger.

Second, would be my shooting competency. At this time I feel that at least a year of constant practice would be in order before I would feel comfortable going into the field to hunt. And, by constant practice, I mean to go to the range and shoot for at least several hours at a time, at least twice a week. This is just an educated guess at how long it will take to achieve competency. I doubt that I could do it in less than a year, and it might take longer.

However long it takes to amass the time to feel comfortable taking an ethical shot, that is how long I intend to spend practicing.

All of the above applies ONLY to static, or very slowly moving animals, NOT wing shooting. Wing shooting is a whole 'nother ball game, and a LOT more practice before I will feel free to try and shoot at flying birds!!!!

I think where I really went wrong with my thinking was to equate a 0.405" diameter, 100 grain, patched round ball being shot out of a .410 smoothbore barrel; with a 0.395" diameter, 93 grain patched round ball being shot out of a .40 caliber rifled barrel. I thought that at 25 meters the two loads would have similar killing power. Assuming that the powder charge, and the granulation size of the black powder were the same. As well as the ability to place an accurate shot on a deer-sized animal.

So my question to the members here is this:

With half of the state fish and game departments allowing .40 caliber projectiles with no weight restrictions; just what are the ethics in using such small-sized round balls on deer-sized game??

Regards,
                R.J.Bruce

[Craig Wilcox]

RJ, it sounds as though you have put sufficient thought into your firearm, and have indeed sought - and got! - some really great inputs.
There are a bunch of us on the forum, including me, who have been through cataract surgery, and it is the truth to say it is a piece of cake!  You do get a great view of the procedure, since your eyelids are held open.  It is really neat when the Doc slides that new lens in, and you can SEE!
Just follow all the instructions about eyedrops, etc.  And check to see if you can find a surgeon who likes to hunt or shoot.  I was that lucky, and he gave me 20/20 left, 20/15 right, making it easy to pick up the "X" in the center of the bull.
Good luck, sir, and good shooting.

[T*O*F]

If my cataracts develop to the point that lens replacement surgery is an option

Not IF, but WHEN.  No one tells you WHEN.  My wife was having vision problems and thought it was her glasses.  Her eye doctor asked her why she hadn't had her cataracts fixed.  She replied that no one had ever told her.  She is scheduled this month for the surgery.  It is a free Medicare procedure.  Get it done.

[R.J.Bruce]

T*O*F
            Last year the ophthalmologist at the VA told me that my cataracts had not yet developed to the point of requiring surgery. My annual eye exam is next month. I will see what they say then.

R.J.Bruce