Author Topic: correction: want a new .54, but can't decide between Jim Chambers rifles  (Read 2641 times)

Offline Nemovir

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 92
Hello.  I want to get a .54.  It will be a Jim Chambers flintlock.  It going to be either a Christian spring's or English Gentleman's.  What I like to know, with loads being equal. Which has less felt recoil?



****************edit************************
sorry, I screwed up the subject of this thread. i have no problem with recoil. my problem is choosing between the two. i keep going back and forth.  I figure that felt recoil will be the deciding factoring.  that why i wanted your input.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2019, 05:30:52 PM by Nemovir »

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6857
Re: want a new .54, but have recoil concerns
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2019, 07:53:50 PM »
Those two style rifles will likely be about even.  As far as I am concerned, round ball muzzleloaders with flat butts like on those guns, don't start to recoil until you get up to very heavy 140 to 160gr. loads in a .58.
If you cannot handle even weak recoil of a .54, you should perhaps think about .45 or .50. These have no recoil.
Much depends on what you want out of the rifle.   If you want to hunt moose and elk, then a .54 is wonderful, however
you will have to load it for power, flatness of trajectory and accuracy. That will require tight combinations and sufficient powder to
achieve the desired results. Most guys I know who use a .54 for the big animals up here in the North, use 120gr. to 130gr. 2F GOEX (not 3F).
These do have a little recoil, but should not bother a man, however would likely be to much for a woman not used to shooting big guns. Some do
just fine with them. Average rifle weight would be in the 8 3/4's to 10 pound range.  The Christian Spring's rifle is especially nice, with it's Germanic
flavour. The English Gentleman's rifle is also special, a little more refined, perhaps.
love em both. The Christian Spring's rifle would make a nice .62 to .66 calibre big game rifle.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline WadePatton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4232
  • Tennessee
Re: want a new .54, but have recoil concerns
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2019, 08:34:04 PM »
What makes you think recoil would be an issue? Do you have a flinch already? Or are you sensitive to other guns (careful, don't start throwing modern ctg names around). Or have you just been reading a lot-and are taking on the "concerns" of others. And there's no shame in having physical requirements for less recoil, so don't think I'm "talking down" about it. Everyone is different.

The only time I noticed my 54's recoil was that one double-charge event, and after a while on the bench--but I use an elevated bench for more of an upright position.  If you're shooting game-recoil is the last thing you'll notice.  If you're pounding targets from prone or table positions, then sure it can add up. Off hand and proper stance mitigates lots of recoil issues. 

Benching heavy hitters of my past, I used a lead-filled drag bag (home brew).  HTH.
Hold to the Wind

Offline Nemovir

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 92
Re: want a new .54, but have recoil concerns
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2019, 09:26:00 PM »
I can't decide between the two, so recoil with be the thing that will decide it for me. 

Offline MuskratMike

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 439
Re: want a new .54, but have recoil concerns
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2019, 09:32:32 PM »
With the stock geometry of either of these two fine rifles I wouldn't be concerned. I shot unti recently a .58 with a crescent butt. If loaded with 120 grains or higher it had recoil but still not as much a hunting cartridge in smokeless for big game. I am having a new big game rifle & pistol combination made for deer, elk, and bear by Lowell Haarer. I could have had any caliber I wanted. Both are going to be in 54.
"Muskrat" Mike McGuire
Keep your eyes on the skyline, your flint sharp and powder dry.

Offline rich pierce

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12669
Re: want a new .54, but have recoil concerns
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2019, 09:54:03 PM »
Iím a big recoil wuss unless shooting a flintlock. Then my intent to focus overcomes noticing much else except with heavy loads. Iím good to 100 grains in a .58.

But Iím a ďbleederĒ with a clotting disorder (mild) and noticed a bruise on my left shoulder today from an overvthe log shoot Saturday. Iím learning to shoot left handed so I can see better but obviously have bad form. It was a .36!

Many folks have bad recoil experience from TC guns which for me have too high a cheekpiece or something. With a CS architecture my .58 is quite more comfy.
St. Louis, Missouri

Offline hanshi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4159
  • My passion is longrifles!
    • martialartsusa.com
Re: want a new .54, but have recoil concerns
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2019, 10:43:57 PM »
Recoil doesn't bother me in a decent gun.  I have a .54 and have shot targets and killed deer with 110 grains of 3F.  The only time I recall something that hurt was the day following an afternoon of bench shooting a .50 with a crescent butt plate.  There were bruises, not unusual, but a really sore shoulder for a few days.  Other than that, no problem.
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Offline Craig Wilcox

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1097
Re: want a new .54, but have recoil concerns
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2019, 10:55:01 PM »
Nemovir, recoil is a function of Newton's laws.  If you have energy released, you will have an opposite reaction of the force involved.  But note that the formula for energy is Energy = velocity squared time mass.  That "velocity squared" is the key point  - higher energy comes from squaring the speed, therefore, the more speed, much more energy.
Our black powder roundballs just do not develop enough speed, at reasonable powder loadings, to cause a whole lot of recoil.  A .54 round ball is about 224 grains of weight, a .50 is 178, and so on.  But at our typical muzzle velocities, you don't get a whole lot of reaction.

I agree with Daryl that there will be little difference in recoil between the English Gentleman's and the Christian Springs rifles.  I would lean a bit on the side of the CS - with that "German" flair, the rifle will be just a wee bit heavier, thus less felt recoil.  And heck, you could always fill the patch box with lead balls to soak up even a bit more recoil.

Generally, our "old-fashioned" firearms are tons of fun to shoot, and unless you spend the whole day at the firing bench, you won't come home sore at all.

Best of luck to you - you'll find it a fascinating sport and hobby.
Craig Wilcox
We are all elated when Dame Fortune smiles at us, but remember that she is always closely followed by her daughter, Miss Fortune.

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6857
Re: want a new .54, but have recoil concerns
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2019, 03:44:06 AM »
I find even with my .69 shooting heavy long range powder charges, the purple and yellow shoulder marks disappear after a week or two. ::)
If I wear my past shoulder protector (the thin one) - no colouring of tissues at all, and easy shooting.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline J.E. Moore

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 66
Re: want a new .54, but have recoil concerns
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2019, 04:00:53 AM »
One thing to consider is how well the rifle fits you, it means alot on accuracy and recoil. I wouldnt imagine either rifle in that caliber would be punishing but I don't know your circumstance but I do know how it is with a boogered up shoulder and elbow, I made the buttplate on the rifle I did fit my shoulder and made the LOP to work with my elbow and it made a world of difference to me, recoil is something that doesn't cross my mind when shooting it, thank goodness.

Offline WadePatton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4232
  • Tennessee
Re: want a new .54, but have recoil concerns
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2019, 04:48:35 AM »
...


****************edit************************
sorry, I screwed up the subject of this thread. i have no problem with recoil. my problem is choosing between the two. i keep going back and forth.  I figure that felt recoil will be the deciding factoring.  that why i wanted your input.




Oscar India Charlie (O I C)

Then flip a coin I suppose because I don't think that you'll be "punished" by either of those guns in 54 with hunting loads.  But you do bring a nice question, which is in my mind: which of these guns, with proper historic architecture, might give the shooter more felt recoil with the same loads.  I think this is better than choosing a style of gun and then asking the maker to "de-recoil" it by changing the architecture.

So with that sorted, I'm sure some more guys might weigh in on the angles and drop and how that affects perceived recoil (as some have already).  Of course actual recoil with same load in same weight gun is exactly the same energy, it's just in how that energy is translated to our structure.

Of course the best answer is always get one now, and the other one later!   8)

Hold to the Wind

Offline Pukka Bundook

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1833
Re: want a new .54, but have recoil concerns
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2019, 07:22:49 AM »
Nemovir,

Maybe ask Jim Chambers how they feel and the differences.
In theory, the English should be V comfortable to shoot, but as the Christian Spring's will be a bit heavier, it may suit better and as has been noted, the flat wide buttplates are all pretty comfortable.

Let us know what you decide!!

R.

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9927
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: want a new .54, but have recoil concerns
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2019, 02:42:10 PM »
The Eddie Marshal gun is going to be heavy in .54, you're not going to have any recoil issues with it.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Ken Prather

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1267
    • TomBob Outdoors, LLC.
Re: want a new .54, but have recoil concerns
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2019, 03:00:41 PM »
I have the english gents rifle from Jim Chambers. Its a 58 cal. Does it have more recoil? a little bit more, yes. But my son when he was young shot it and had no trouble with it at all.
Galations 2:20

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5814
Re: want a new .54, but have recoil concerns
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2019, 03:07:07 PM »
Stock it similar to Smart Dog's English rifle and forget the crescent butt plates and
recoil will not be a problem. A .54 round ball weighs about 250 grains,maybe and
a military style hollow base about 400,maybe.

Bob Roller

Offline Nit Wit

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 189
Re: want a new .54, but have recoil concerns
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2019, 03:53:10 PM »
Target loads would be 55-60  grains. Hunting load 70 grains. Recoil will be mild. If you feel the need run her up to 100 grains, punch your shoulde and slap your face. I've killed bear, deer and moose with 50 to 70 grains of bp. None of those animals complained that I didn't use enough powder!
Nit Wit 

Offline OldMtnMan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1780
  • Colorado
Re: want a new .54, but have recoil concerns
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2019, 04:02:57 PM »
What you haven't told us it what game you'll be hunting and what is your max distance for shot.

Like nit wit, I don't use heavy loads of powder. 80gr of 2f for elk, bear, and mule deer. I've never lost any game i've shot. Heavy loads of powder expand a round ball too fast and you don't get the penetration. If I can put a hole in both lungs my load is heavy enough. I do enjoy getting close but I can take longer shots with my load. Some will shoot heavy powder loads so the ball will shoot flatter. That's ok I guess but knowing where your load shoots at all distances works too. A little Kentucky windage is part of shooting muzzleloaders for me.
Pete

Offline Longknife

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1711
Re: want a new .54, but have recoil concerns
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2019, 05:18:56 PM »
What you haven't told us it what game you'll be hunting and what is your max distance for shot.

Like nit wit, I don't use heavy loads of powder. 80gr of 2f for elk, bear, and mule deer. I've never lost any game i've shot. Heavy loads of powder expand a round ball too fast and you don't get the penetration. If I can put a hole in both lungs my load is heavy enough. I do enjoy getting close but I can take longer shots with my load. Some will shoot heavy powder loads so the ball will shoot flatter. That's ok I guess but knowing where your load shoots at all distances works too. A little Kentucky windage is part of shooting muzzleloaders for me.

Nemovir,,,Take note,lots of wisdom here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!,,,,Ed
Ed Hamberg

Offline Natureboy

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 492
Re: want a new .54, but have recoil concerns
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2019, 09:48:33 PM »
  Recoil is also a function of architecture. I've read that with a wide buttplate, it is distributed well. Also, there is a formula that if the line extending from the top of the comb intersects with the vent, a gun will create the least recoil.

Offline OldMtnMan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1780
  • Colorado
Re: want a new .54, but have recoil concerns
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2019, 10:15:35 PM »
Traditional muzzleloaders, in general, aren't that recoil friendly. A stock that has a comb that slants forward is much easier on recoil. The comb pulls away from the cheek on recoil. You'll only find that with modern guns.

All we can do is hold the gun tight to our shoulder and hope recoil isn't too bad. I like Hawken style guns with quite a curve to the butt plate. When shouldered right it's across the chest and is against the shoulder and bicep. That way it doesn't bang into the collar bone. As was said already. Shooting offhand helps too.
Pete

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6857
Re: want a new .54, but have recoil concerns
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2019, 03:09:34 AM »
I agree that the traditional later period rifles were not comfortable to shoot with heavier loads in larger bore sizes.
The earlier American guns designs that followed even earlier German Designs were the best of the American's for handling recoil.
The flattish wide butts helps distribute recoil and the straight stock shapes also helped with less rise and move backwards movement.
The more drop in the stock's heal, and higher combs as on some later Lehigh guns, along with the hooked narrow butts of the Plain's type rifles
just exacerbated the recoil in larger calibres.  .58 is close to the tops for a Hawken or Dimmick-type rifle.
The wide shot-gun butts of the earlier rifles (Marshal, Jaeger, Lancaster styles as well as earlier English Rifles), along with the later English guns as
 well, handled recoil very well in comparison.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Scota4570

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1149
Re: want a new .54, but have recoil concerns
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2019, 03:26:46 AM »
Try 1F powder.  The slower acceleration will be more comfortable to shoot.

Offline WadePatton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4232
  • Tennessee
Re: want a new .54, but have recoil concerns
« Reply #22 on: May 23, 2019, 05:06:41 PM »
Try 1F powder.  The slower acceleration will be more comfortable to shoot.

He says he has no issue with recoil in his revamped OP, but that he's going to use it to help him decide which gun he should get.  And I say a coin flip would be just as effective/meaningful if recoil is no issue. Wondering if he's placed his order yet?
Hold to the Wind

Offline Nemovir

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 92
Re: want a new .54, but have recoil concerns
« Reply #23 on: May 23, 2019, 06:17:39 PM »
sorry, been busy.  as for it use. i just want a .54 to complete the set.  have a .32, .40.  figured not much of a different between .50 and .54, but larger size would better, if I plan to hunt.  as for ordering, I haven't  yet.  Maybe tomorrow or next year.

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6857
Re: want a new .54, but have recoil concerns
« Reply #24 on: May 23, 2019, 07:39:21 PM »
If I was going to have a rifle to shoot rendezvous AND hunt big game, it would most certainly be a .54 or .58. Either suits as a long range (200yard) target gun and either
are capable of killing moose and elk out to that same range - IF the hunter is up to it.

I have personally witnessed a .54 used on a good sized mature bull moose shot at 170 yards, with what I would call a rendezvous load of 100gr. 2F (equiv) powder. The
ball penned both lungs and heart and ended up on the off side under the hide. The "power" was between 200 and 300foot pounds energy. The bull took off like a race horse,
running 40 yards and dropped dead mid-stride. I thought I would put this in, just in case someone thought FPE meant killing power or actually had ANYTHING to do with power,
 killing power or effectiveness.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2019, 07:42:46 PM by Daryl »
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V