Author Topic: First Rifle from Blank (Read 9830 times)

Tizzy · « **on:** July 01, 2009, 10:10:09 PM »

I am in the planning process to build my first rifle from a blank. I have decided on an Issac Haines style, being I have an extra "C" weight Rice barrel laying around. I have the piece of wood on the way, however I cannot seem to find a plan drawing for a transitional style that shows the rifle's top profile. I wish I trusted my drawing hand enough to come up with the propper profile from photos, however that is out of the question due to my lack of artistic skill.... Any help on pointing me in the correct direction would be appreciated.

rich pierce · « **Reply #1 on:** July 01, 2009, 11:08:18 PM »

I believe there are some blueprints/plans available at Track, etc. but most who build from blanks develop their own plans. We study originals and pore over books like Rifles in Colonial America, develop a sense of the architecture and decorative features we want to use, then make our own plans. Eric Von Aschwege is going to give a class on this at Dixon's at the end of the month. Most longrifle building books tell how to lay out a rifle.

Maybe it would help to have some clarification of how you're using some of your terms, just to make sure we're on the same page. "Isaac Haines style" , "transitional" and "top profile" could mean different things depending on context. Most "Isaac Haines" kits are 1780's Lancaster style but with a shorter barrel for easy handling. Obviously Isaac worked over a fair span of time and the architecture of his rifles varied some, being more robust and rounded early on and more "cut and lean" a little later. But all had classic, well-developed Lancaster styling, a straight comb and toe line to the buttstock being a hallmark.

"Transitional" to many means a robust longrifle with Germanic roots still evident, and for me the term evokes a 2" wide buttplate, a D weight barrel, and a guard with a rail well off the wrist. Maybe a sliding wooden patchbox or a simple 2-piece brass box.

"Top profile"; not sure if you mean the cross-section of the stock through the comb or if you mean the view from above that shows the width of the stock along it's length.

Not sure if I've answered anything, but the specifics of laying out a gun on a blank are more than can be written quickly. Basically, lay the barrel on the wood, position the lock, then the sear and trigger, then the buttplate depending on your length of pull, adjust the drop at the heel and the pitch, then establish the lines of the buttstock comb, toe and wrist. The forestock will be determined by the barrel, the web, and the thickness of the ramrod hole. Within these parameters, small changes make it possible to generate a Lancaster, York, Reading, Bucks County, etc rifle design that is instantly recognizable. The small details are the "signatures".

Don Getz · « **Reply #2 on:** July 02, 2009, 01:31:49 AM »

If you don't have the ability to lay a gun out on a plank, you are in for a long journey. Did you ever think, perhaps this
isn't the way to go..........Don

Tizzy · « **Reply #3 on:** July 02, 2009, 02:18:32 AM »

Thanks for your input. I wish I could make it up to Dixon's for the class, however I have to complete some training for the military. I definitely plan to make it to the next one though. To clarify myself a little better with my vague terms, I would like to build a rifle with lines similar to one that Issac Haines might have built early in his career with the Germanic influence still being present. In reference to "top profile", I was referring to the view of the rifle from above. I know that attempting to build a rifle from a plank with only having minor experience building from kits may not yield the best final product, but it will be a learning experience, and with the help of the experienced builders on this forum I hope to eventually build a rifle worthy of posting pictures on here.

tallbear · « **Reply #4 on:** July 02, 2009, 04:23:21 AM »

Tizzy
A bunch of years ago I took an engraveing class with Wallce Gusler.Before he would let us engrave we had to draw out the entire design first.When I told him I couldn't draw he said"Son if you can't draw it you can't engrave it".I'm passing that advice on to you.If I can learn to draw you can too.Get a copy of the book Rifles of Colonial America there are a lot of good examples of what your looking for in there.Draw it and redraw it until it looks right.The practice will make you a much better builder.

Mitch

AndyThomas · « **Reply #5 on:** July 02, 2009, 05:54:35 AM »

Tizzy,

Sounds like you want to build what I would call an "Early Lancaster", and as Rich pointed out, it has straight comb and toe lines and a 2" (or wider) butt piece.

I've never drawn the whole gun on the blank before. I do it piece meal. Here's what I'd do.

Set the barrel in the blank so that you'll have enough room on the lock side for 1/4" castoff plus half the width of your butt piece.

Install the lock and trigger.

Mark the butt where the rear of the butt piece should be, i.e. the length of pull you want.

Mark where the heel (of the butt piece) will be so that it is about 3" below a line along the top of the barrel (but parrallel to the bore) and with the back of the butt piece on the LOP mark.

The comb line will run from the heel point straight to the rear lock bolt.

The toe line will run from the toe (after you install the butt piece) straight to the rear lock bolt. The comb and toe lines will both converge on the lock bolt point.

Once these lines are laid out, eyeball in the wrist lines. It would help greatly to have Rifles of Colonial America, Vol 1 handy to see what might be proper here. The wrist should be about 1 3/8" to 1 7/16" in width and height.

The Early Lancaster is one of my favorites. As a matter of fact, I'm working on one now. A Chamber's Dale Johnson lock is working out quite nicely!

Hope this helps,
Andy

Berks Liberty · « **Reply #6 on:** July 02, 2009, 08:08:55 AM »

Quote from: Tizzy on July 01, 2009, 10:10:09 PM

I am in the planning process to build my first rifle from a blank. I have decided on an Issac Haines style, being I have an extra "C" weight Rice barrel laying around. I have the piece of wood on the way, however I cannot seem to find a plan drawing for a transitional style that shows the rifle's top profile. I wish I trusted my drawing hand enough to come up with the propper profile from photos, however that is out of the question due to my lack of artistic skill.... Any help on pointing me in the correct direction would be appreciated.

Tizzy,

Go buy Peter Alexander's Book The Gunmaker of Grenville County and Rifles of Colonial American by Shumway. Alexander's book shows step by step how to lay out a rifle and Shumway's book has a lot of great photographs and the measurements of each rifle. I'm in the process of laying out a rifle which I don't have access to an original to copy or take the lines from so I'm using measurements within the books and research material I have. I agree with Mitch, draw it, look at it, and keep drawing it until it looks right. The way I look at it is at some time you gotta take the plung and work with a blank. But there are always precarved stocks out there.

Jason

Rolf · « **Reply #7 on:** July 02, 2009, 11:38:44 AM »

Tizzy, go for it, if you want to learn and you are prepared to practice. I'm working on my first build. It's a pair of Kentucky pistols that I've drawn myself. The only bought parts are the barrels and locks. The rest I've made from scratch. To get the design/parts right, I made four practice stocks(cheap birch), and a pile of triggergards, thimbles, etc. I spent about a year drawing and practicing. I've started on the the "real"stock blanks yesterday and will finish the pair of pistols sometime this fall. It's a lot of work, but I've learned alot more this way, than starting with a kit. I "disected" my practice stocks on a band saw. It's a big help to see all the wood webs between the parts inlet.

I'll be starting on my first rifle this fall. I'm building from scratch with a Dunlap grade six curly maple blank, lefthanded siler flintlock, 44" swamped Rice barrel. I've bought the blue print for a Beck rifle sold by Knob mountain. It's the only blue print I've seen that shows top, bottom, side views and cross sections. I also bought the buttplate and triggergard from Knob mountain. The totw prints only show side views.

When I start on this rifle, I'm going to do "dummy"(no parts inlet) rifles out of pine until I'm sure I've got it right.

Best regards
Rolfkt

Don Getz · « **Reply #8 on:** July 02, 2009, 03:53:50 PM »

A suggestion if this is going to be your first gun build from a blank. I would look for a rather plain piece of maple, hard,
and don't be enamored with a lot of figure in the wood. After all, this is going to be a learning piece, why waste a great
piece of wood. Plus, you don't really need great figure in the wood to make a great gun....example, check out Jim Kibler's
guns..............Don

Roger Fisher · « **Reply #9 on:** July 02, 2009, 04:58:01 PM »

Les C now,. your first build right? Unless frustation turns your crank I would suggest a v plain blank and ask one of several posters here to preform the butt, cut the channel and r hole. This gives you the center line (or you can find it) and working from said center line go from there? More enjoyable. Farther on down the road and being more comfy w what your doing then consider doing one all by your lonesome! The suggestion to get the Dixon book and the Gunsmith of Grenville County is a good one...and of course so is the blueprint idea.

OhOh! I reread your post and seems like you have built 'em before but not yet from a blank.. I still feel you better off having the butt roughed in the channel cut and the hole drilled then take it from there. This does not a precarve make!!

Trust me more than a couple pros do it thataway. Time is money

rich pierce · « **Reply #10 on:** July 02, 2009, 05:40:04 PM »

I'll take the other side and say that building from a blank is less frustrating for me. i have a tendency to follow the precarve's lines and not develop my own lines. if you use a precarve, you have one shot at getting things right. If you alter something on a blank, the rest of the architecture can be changed to make it all flow.

Worst case scenario for me was a Hawken precarve that no matter how I tried, could not work with the usual Hawken double set trickers and still keep the right wrist dimensions and flow. I had to do major bending on the trigger plate, which put them out of phase badly, etc. And cutting a buttplate inlet square on a pre-carved stock is also challenging for me. That was my last precarve, 1982 or so.

Speaking of layout, I was interested to read the new Muzzle Blasts article on Mark Silver where he said he seldom if ever makes a full plan for a gun, but lets it evolve as he goes along. Of course he has the instincts and experience so some things will be apparent to him automatically and he won't need to set it all down on paper.

northmn · « **Reply #11 on:** July 02, 2009, 09:27:16 PM »

Building from a blank, which I always do now, is nothing more than the ability to "layout". A rifle has dimensions such as a 1/8, 3/16 or 1/4 inch web. a 3/8 ramrod hole etc. A Lancaster rifle has all lines of the buttstock convergin on the center of the cock. A wrist is maybe 1 3/8" thick. While the dimensions may vary somewhat, you lay out according to their parameters. I do not "draw, I use straight edges, adjustable machine squares and a little simple math. Don's advice on using a plain stock is very good as you are on a learning curve and will have problems you have not dealt with yet. To me building from a blank is the only way to go as it permits a lot more leeway than a precarved.

DP

flehto · « **Reply #12 on:** July 03, 2009, 02:15:56 AM »

I "cheat" and pencil trace a view in the RCA vols. and after that, it's enlarged on the computer to a given dim for that LR that's also specified in the RCA vols., usually the BP height. Have made 6 Bucks County LRs from this butt pattern and none are exactly the same because of different Bplates, but all look like a Bucks County LR. Could have done it freehand but I'm 77 and can't wait that long....Fred

Tizzy · « **Reply #13 on:** July 03, 2009, 02:29:07 AM »

Thanks to all of you for your responses based on personal insight and experience. After reading through the responses multiple times, I have decided to not be so ancy with jumping directly into working on the blank when it arrives. I am going to order Rifles of Colonial America, and do some research on the particular school I'm trying to recreate."Early Lancaster in the style of Issac Haines." Once I have completed my research I am going to draw out the rifle on paper, then draw it again, and again until I get it correct. It will probably take my non drawing self many tries!

I will then transfer the pattern to plywood, and once satisfied, finally to the blank....Then I will proceed at a snails pace.
Many of you have advised certain books such as The Gunsmith of Greenville County by Peter Alexander and The Art of Building the Pennsylvania Longrifle, I have acquired both and they are both excellent materials for someone starting out. Why I haven't ordered Rifles of Colonial America yet is beyond me, as I know it is an excellent reference based upon numerous posts of experienced builders on this forum. I wish I could make it to Dixon's Fair, and try and learn a thing or two from the classes being given, but it just isn't possible this year for me.
Once again thanks for all the informative posts, and for being willing to help guide a newbie along. Take care.....Izzy

rich pierce · « **Reply #14 on:** July 03, 2009, 03:15:48 PM »

The Isaac Haines rifles in RCA are toward the end of Volume I.

Don Getz · « **Reply #15 on:** July 03, 2009, 03:47:36 PM »

I guess I'm lazy, but I would rather have Mark Weader chew off all that extra wood around the butt of a lancaster. I will
admit, I did have a lot of work into designing the butt shape of the lancaster pattern we have Mark use, that does make
a difference. I also have completed a Beck buttstock and have that up with Mark right now. It will have an octagon to
round barrel inlet also...a bit different from the ordinary. John just finished a 44" barrel, 54 cal., yesterday and will be going into a lancaster stock, should have it ready by Dixon's. I will be dong some different stuff with it, will not look like
a typical lancaster when finished. I am also hoping to have that "Isaac Beck" put together by then......let's see, three weeks, yeah, should be able to do it..........Don

Tizzy · « **Reply #16 on:** July 03, 2009, 05:26:35 PM »

Thanks RichPierce for the tip on where to find the Issac Haines rifles in RCA. Mr. Getz I would love to see some photos posted on here of your "Isaac Beck" since I wont be able to see it in person.

Roger Fisher · « **Reply #17 on:** July 03, 2009, 06:32:44 PM »

Quote from: Don Getz on July 03, 2009, 03:47:36 PM

I guess I'm lazy, but I would rather have Mark Weader chew off all that extra wood around the butt of a lancaster. I will
admit, I did have a lot of work into designing the butt shape of the lancaster pattern we have Mark use, that does make
a difference. I also have completed a Beck buttstock and have that up with Mark right now. It will have an octagon to
round barrel inlet also...a bit different from the ordinary. John just finished a 44" barrel, 54 cal., yesterday and will be going into a lancaster stock, should have it ready by Dixon's. I will be dong some different stuff with it, will not look like
a typical lancaster when finished. I am also hoping to have that "Isaac Beck" put together by then......let's see, three weeks, yeah, should be able to do it..........Don

Hey! You working double shifts

I suppose thats nothing for such a youngster!

erdillonjr · « **Reply #18 on:** July 03, 2009, 07:33:15 PM »

Roger, If I were you i would get the barrel inleted and the ramrod hole drilled then take it from there. Fred miller will do it he does a great job. Allen Martin and Mark Wheland use him and thats the way they start. Good luck. ED

Roger Fisher · « **Reply #19 on:** July 03, 2009, 08:09:22 PM »

Quote from: erdillonjr on July 03, 2009, 07:33:15 PM

Roger, If I were you i would get the barrel inleted and the ramrod hole drilled then take it from there. Fred miller will do it he does a great job. Allen Martin and Mark Wheland use him and thats the way they start. Good luck. ED

Wot fer Rodger/Roger you talking about. I've already been down those roads = frequently in fact...Ed: You been in the wine jug??

54ball · « **Reply #20 on:** July 04, 2009, 08:56:43 AM »

Tizzy
I have the Isacc Haines plan from Track of the Wolf. As far as what you asked for in your original post, it is exactly what you want. It has the above view plus cross sections to see stock shape. Plus it is life size.
With that said I think It's a good idea to get the books you mentioned. The suggestion of having the barrel inlet, ramrod drilled and butt roughed in is wise. Believe me there will still be plenty to shape.

Tizzy · « **Reply #21 on:** July 04, 2009, 06:43:03 PM »

Thanks for the information about the TOW plan drawing 54Ball. I wasn't sure if that drawing included cross sections and a view from above. I had looked at that drawing on their website, and could not tell if it included these features.
I will probably make an order for that plan soon when I order a few more chisels from them. However, after reading through the replies to my original question I have become determined to do some research of the photos in RCA(which I ordered yesterday,) derive my dimensions from originals, and lay a pattern out on the blank. Many have advised me to have the barrel inlet and butstock roughed in by Mark Weader or Fred Miller. That brings me to another question that I'm sure is a newbie question. When sending your blank to one of these gentlemen to get the barrel inlet and butstock roughed in, do they follow the layout of your rifle on the blank or do they have certain patterns that they follow to rough in the butstock, say in Early Lancaster fashion? I guess the simplified question I'm asking is when you receive the stock back from them does the butstock still have enough material left on it to shape it the way you desire, or is it in more of the fashion of a pre-carve?

54ball · « **Reply #22 on:** July 04, 2009, 10:46:44 PM »

Tizzy,
Your project may evolve into something different than the original idea. Mine has.
Originally I planned on a close copy of the Free born rifle I believe RCA 114. You can see the original plus many others at the American Historic Services web site run by Longrifle and history student Mel Halanka. That site has many original rifles with commentaries on each. Instead of the Revolutionary early Lancaster or Virginia or even Carolina "The free Born's origin is kind of a mystery it has some Germanic features but also some strong English features as well".
I decided my first real build would be a mid 1800s North Carolina Gillespie Mountain Rifle in Percussion!
Why such a departure? I have many reasons. First and foremost I feel my skill level is not up the 18th Century. For my first rifle I wanted to concentrate on architecture. A later mountain rifle comes from a different time and place. Its from a culture I descend and of whom lived simple but colorful lives. Their rifles were simple yet elegant. This Gillespie of mine will be as intricate as any long rifle but the intricacy is in the form and the flow, basic architecture which is the heart of any longrifle. An 18th century rifle has that plus a measure of old world high art.
I also have had dealings with Dennis Glazener the founder of Gillespie rifle works and he helped get this project started. I have an earlier Gillespie based on an 1810 Mathew Gillespie in .45 flintlock so I wanted a later Mathew in .54 percussion to be my go-to rifle. Its a little large for that late of a rifle so it will be a "show nuff" Bar or Hawg rifle. Since I've owned that .45 Gillespie I've studied them and am more familiar with the type. I plan on making this rifle as authentic as possible.
Since I wanted a Mathew rifle my stock came with the butt and up to the rear of the of the lock panels duplicated from one of Mr. Glazener's originals. From the rear of the lock panels forward the stock is essentially a profiled blank with the bbl set and ramrod drilled.
A stock man like Fred Miller or Jacks Mountain Stocks should easily be able to set your barrel and drill the ramrod on a profiled blank. This leaves all of the shaping up to you.
The Gillespie just seemed to fit ME better for my first build. There is no reason why you can't build a fine early rifle from a blank. I would concentrate on architecture. There were some very basic early rifles but remember all the silver moons, carving and purple horseshoes will not hide bad architecture.
You will find when you get the RCA book that a lot of the fun in this settling on a rifle and finding the correct or closest parts to make it happen.
As far as artistic ability, I know folks who cant draw that good but they can paint so well it looks like a photograph. The trick is getting whats in your brain brought out onto the wood.

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Author Topic: First Rifle from Blank (Read 9830 times)

Tizzy

Tizzy

Berks Liberty

northmn

Tizzy

Tizzy

erdillonjr

54ball

Tizzy

54ball