Author Topic: Muzzle Crowns - Again  (Read 8911 times)

Daryl

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Muzzle Crowns - Again
« on: July 03, 2009, 06:52:37 PM »
Here's the crown on my .40 match barrel.  It allows using a .400" ball with a .022" denim patch, although the barrel shoots just as well with a .019" denim patch - both with windshield washer fluid or LHV or spit for lube. I also use a .397" ball with a .0215" denim patch as measured from my mould and by my mic. The bore of this rifle is .398".



Here's the crown on my .69 (14 bore) rifle. I have used several ball diameters in this one as well - a 16 bore ball, ie: .662" with 2, .018" denim patches, both with WW and with pure lead.  The loading is quite easy and the patches, both from each shot, are reusable. Accuracy seems to fall off comparred to the larger balls, past about 90 yards, although the patches maintain their integrity with any loads.  I've also used WW and pure lead  15 bore balls, of .675" diameter with .030" denim patches with excellent results and the patches are again, reusable after being fired. the larger, almost 14 bore ball of .684" diameter is the most accurate.  I'm using a stripped denim Taylor gave me, measuring .020" on my calipers, which loads easily in this crown.  The WW balls measure .002" larger than the numbers given, BTW, which is one reason they load tighter. The other reason is the hardness of the alloy prevents easy impression of the lands upon loading.  As you can see in this picture,s the emery just barely started in the bottom of the grooves. This crown makes for easy loading. The .40's crown is a bit deeper and is even easier to load. The .400's and a .019" patch goes down almost with finger pressure, once seated even with the muzzle. I use a short starter with both, however it is not needed with the .40's crown.

 

Lets see your crowns and tell us what your loads you are using.  How about, no posts & descriptions without a picture?

Both these crowns were first cut with an angled tool seated in a drill press, then ground and polished with emery and my thumb.(I've stopped using my pocket knife for the initial cutting - but it works).

Offline longcruise

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Re: Muzzle Crowns - Again
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2009, 11:37:58 PM »
Here is a .50 cal Traditions Deer Hunter.  This gun shot just ok intitially.  First step was to firelap the barrel and then this crown was done with a series of three homemade tools that are wooden cones of a graduated angle with center rods to act as bore guides.

This gun shoots a .495 ball with a #40 drill patch or a Wally World patch with much better accuracy than it did before lapping and crowning.  Loading is much easier and it probably could be loaded with a .500 ball and the #40 drill but I don't have any .500 balls to try.

Mike Lee

billd

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Re: Muzzle Crowns - Again
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2009, 01:20:09 AM »
Darly,   Looks like you have a little dinger on the crown of that .40.  If it ain't broke, don't fix it.... but be aware it's there.

Bill

Harnic

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Re: Muzzle Crowns - Again
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2009, 05:02:01 AM »
I think Billd missed part of your request "Darly";) ! "How about, no posts & descriptions without a picture?"

Daryl, I took your & Roger's pestering about my overly long (heavy) barrel to heart & chopped off 6" a couple weeks ago!  I used a hacksaw, fine file, single fluted counter-sink on my cordless drill, & some Emery cloth with oil to finish up (on my thumb of course!).  It's now 36" instead of 42" & MUCH easier to hold for off-hand work!  It also got rid of that ugly factory "crown" from GM.  What do you think?:



Yeah, I know the forward barrel key is !@*%&@ close to the muzzle & the stock is cut back a bit far, but there was a rod pipe there & the corresponding notch inlet for it to work around.  If it shoots well like this I'll probably put an Ebony nose cap on to clean things up a bit next winter.  It sure hangs a lot lighter in the hand now! :D
« Last Edit: July 04, 2009, 05:04:07 AM by Harnic »

billd

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Re: Muzzle Crowns - Again
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2009, 06:16:38 AM »
Daryl, Darly.......things happen when you type on a Blackberry because your too lazy to get off the couch.
Bill

Harnic

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Re: Muzzle Crowns - Again
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2009, 07:09:08 AM »
LOL!  Just teasin' Bill!  We all do it regularly!  Daryl's been called a LOT worse!  ;)

Daryl

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Re: Muzzle Crowns - Again
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2009, 03:58:48 PM »
TKS, Bill- I noticed the ding too. Interesting, and I've no idea how it got there. Maybe that's why it's shooting went south  ;) - but, it should be far enough out of the way to not make any difference.

Harry- glad you've done the 'job'. Now, get good with it.

Offline hanshi

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Re: Muzzle Crowns - Again
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2009, 06:58:50 PM »
What happened to "no post without a picture"?  OOPS!
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Daryl

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Re: Muzzle Crowns - Again
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2009, 04:40:38 PM »
Verbage!! - perhaps I should have said, no initial post without a picture.
 My intent was to see a bunch of different crowns on guys rifles. Discussion is always good.

Mike, I like the crown on your rifle - looks as if it would be an easy loader for sure, with tight combinations.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2009, 04:41:35 PM by Daryl »

Offline hanshi

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Re: Muzzle Crowns - Again
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2009, 09:10:45 PM »
Verbage!! - perhaps I should have said, no initial post without a picture.
 My intent was to see a bunch of different crowns on guys rifles. Discussion is always good.

Mike, I like the crown on your rifle - looks as if it would be an easy loader for sure, with tight combinations.

My picture's coming!
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

beleg2

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Re: Muzzle Crowns - Again
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2009, 11:21:18 PM »
What about an original 1839 Purdey?
Not mine for sure, at $ 50.000.-  :o




BTW: Daryl look at the sight, that is the one you like?

Martin

Offline longcruise

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Re: Muzzle Crowns - Again
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2009, 01:22:31 AM »
Quote
Mike, I like the crown on your rifle - looks as if it would be an easy loader for sure, with tight combinations.

When I can get my hands on some tighter balls will give it a try.

Here's a pic of a .54 GM barrel treated with the same tools.  This one loads so easy with a .535 and #40 drill that it begs for a bigger ball or a thicker patch.



beleg2, interesting photo.  Much narrower lands than I see on most modern production barrels.
Mike Lee

Daryl

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Re: Muzzle Crowns - Again
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2009, 03:45:36 PM »
Good note, Mike - that Purdey sure has a nice crown.  I've seen originals with sharp muzzles. the grooves are very similar to my .40 barrel, very narrow with wide lands.

Martin- your right- that is a perfect front sight.

Mike - too - your crowns look identical to my .45 - perfect in my book. Yes - loading with such a crown is easy with tight combinations.  Did some testing yesterday until the feather spring on my Dickert lock broke. I fired a few more without a spring, but it slaps back pretty hard so I stopped shooting it. I didn't want to break the frizzen. Ignition without the spring was perfect, just as before - fastest lock I've ever seen.  With the .45, I loaded a few without using the short starter - .448" ball (.445" Lee mould casts large in pure lead for some reason - I like it) and a .020" patch Gm barrel with .010" rifling. Tight fit but with the crown, the ball swages into the rifling just perfect.  No- it isn't a 2 finger load, but choking up on the rod will get it swaged in and started.

Guys- it's really nice to see those crowns.

Martin - If I had your money, I'd buy that Purdey- you can be it isn't a rack-queen, but is a working gun so probably has a good round ball twist. Most guns of the period that were designed for slugs, have much sharper crowns. It almost looks as if the owner might have crowned it to allow easier loading.

Daryl

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Re: Muzzle Crowns - Again
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2009, 04:53:35 PM »
Here are the crowns on my .45 and .58. Both allow oversized balls being loaded with substancial patches, with ease. I am currently using windshield washer fluid with a bit of body soap in it.  I've used Hoppe's 9 Plus- now hard to get as well as Neetsfoot oil and LHV in both.  Spit lubed patches (sopping wet, of course) loads just as well in either barrel.

The .45 is a GM barrel and the Enfield Musketoon has very wide lands, narrow grooves (or is it the other way around?) & only .003" rifling.  With .575" balls and a .017" denim patch, the ball is well ringed by the starters plunger.  Of course, this helps with string and card cuts - 3 cards split with 3 consecutive shots with this rifle - seemed easy.  It is a tack driver -  ;D!
« Last Edit: July 06, 2009, 04:59:05 PM by Daryl »

peterw

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Re: Muzzle Crowns - Again
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2009, 09:03:06 PM »
Daryl, how do you measure thickness of the patch? Do you squeeze it (how much?) or not?

cal.43

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Re: Muzzle Crowns - Again
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2009, 12:41:23 AM »


the muzzle above was altered with a  round corundgrinder and finished with a ball &  valve grindig paste

Daryl

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Re: Muzzle Crowns - Again
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2009, 05:39:35 PM »
Looks good, cal43.

Peter - as to measuring, I wind in the shaft on the micrometer until it contacts the cloth and the ratchet clicks a few times.  Whether it's 3 clicks or 10 clicks, the measurement doesn't change.  Different Mic's. actually exert different pressure due to the strength of the ratchet's setting. however they are much closer than calipers.  Taylor's mic. gives .001" larger measurements than mine does, however the readings he gets are repeatable, just as they are with mine.

When I used calipers, I squeezed the jaws between forefinger and thumb quite hard and read off the measurement.  Even with that method, the calipers usually give .003" to .004" thicker measurement than my mic. provides.   Thicker material will actually increase those differences to .006" or more depending on how hard you squeeze the jaws. Thus I don't use calipers any more for checking material - too variable.

 The mic is the only tool that gives consistant readings.

peterw

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Re: Muzzle Crowns - Again
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2009, 09:05:24 PM »
Thank you Daryl. I measure material with calipers. I squeeze it as hard as I can. My best load is .440 ball + .018 patch. Dimensions of my barrel: bore .449, groves .463. I have good results with .445 ball + .012 patch and I can load it with my thumb.

« Last Edit: July 07, 2009, 09:11:23 PM by peterw »

Daryl

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Re: Muzzle Crowns - Again
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2009, 04:15:38 AM »
Interesting, I tried thin patches which loaded easily in my rifle, but they caused a buildup of fouling and were pretty much incinerated upon being fired. Accuracy sucked big time as well.

peterw

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Re: Muzzle Crowns - Again
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2009, 11:35:41 AM »
I use semolina for better seal ball with thin patch. In my .54 Great Plains I use  felt wad soaked in lube, but in my .45 Southern Mountain it does not work good. 

Daryl

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Re: Muzzle Crowns - Again
« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2009, 04:50:07 PM »
I agree - some rifles will allow a wad beneath the patched ball, while others show poor shooting with a wad.  You can try different wads, paper, card, felt, donacona shotgun wads, horsehair, wasp-nest, spider webs or even dried seeweed might work -

 I prefer to use a substancial patch and get a perfect seal.