Author Topic: English SPorting Rifle Critique (Read 3408 times)

Bill Raby · « **on:** July 17, 2019, 08:41:50 AM »

Next project will be an English sporting rifle in 4 bore. The barrel that I have is 1 3/4 inch at breech tapering to about 1 1/2 inch at muzzle. I will be building it as a flintlock. The later 4 bore flintlocks were rare, but made right up until the time cartridges came out. Problem is that they were rare enough that I have not been able to find a decent photo of any originals. Best I can think of is to loosely base it on the Track of the Wolf Purdey rifle plans. Obviously I need to make some major adjustments to it to fit this barrel in there.

Attached photo is what I came up with. Original plans with my enlarged version below. Butt plate is the same size. I straightened it out so there is 1 inch less drop. Also made it a lot thicker around the barrel. It will be a few months before I start working on this. Got another rifle I have to finish up first. But it is time to order a stock blank so I figured I better take care of this so I can order one that will work.
Obviously it is going to look a bit different with a barrel this much larger. But does it keep the overall look of an over sized English sporting rifle? I welcome any suggestions.

smart dog · « **Reply #1 on:** July 17, 2019, 01:41:35 PM »

Hi Bill,
Styles changed during the percussion era and that also included the engraving. A good resource is the Lewis Drake website and go to their antique gun inventory. They often have large bore English rifles in both flint and percussion. Depending on the time period you are trying to represent, your biggest challenges will be a good lock and a standing breech that fits your barrel. Chambers late Ketland is OK for a period around 1800 but is a bit out of date for anything much later. The Davis late flint lock is styled better for later locks but needs a lot of work to bring it up to a standard comparable to even a modest English rifle. The Purdey plans you show are for an 1840s-1860s vintage rifle and you should find better examples for flint guns at Lewis Drake. Moreover, with such a big barrel you may want to consider a longer half stock with 2 barrel keys and the standing breech needs to be very strong and potentially anchored with 2 bolts. You will definitely want a bolt coming up through or under the forward finial of the trigger guard and threaded into the bottom of the standing breech.

dave

rich pierce · « **Reply #2 on:** July 17, 2019, 02:05:21 PM »

Just comparing the two drawings without knowing much about originals: on the Purdey the lower outline of the stock starts to curve toward the toe sooner than in your drawing. Yours looks rail straight in the forearm then angles toward the toe later and more abruptly, so it appears to me. Generally speaking forearms look better if they taper a little as well.

Bob Roller · « **Reply #3 on:** July 17, 2019, 03:10:50 PM »

Without a proper antique to study about the best anyone can do is to make a
working speculation and enjoy this shoulder fired cannon.Lynton McKenzie had
a 16 bore Fenton target rifle that used a tiny flint lock like one found on a pocket
pistol.I have made 2 of these tiny locks from parts made in England (maybe)
and will not do any more.Lynton and Steve Alexander made a copy of this gun
and I can't remember who got the two locks I made for another two of these
rifles.
The mention of the Purdy reminds me of a call I got years ago from someone
who wanted to make the caplock version as shown in this drawing and asked
me to make the locks.The problem was,as usual with American projects of
this nature,the lock had to be the cheapest thing on it.I said no and hung up.
Bob Roller

Pukka Bundook · « **Reply #4 on:** July 17, 2019, 05:03:11 PM »

Bill,

All good advise above, and listen carefully to Smart Dog.
There is nothing worse than a generic gun, and late flintlock is a lot different to percussion in most ways.
You do need photos of originals. It's a case of getting it right, and not Nearly right. There is too much work to get it Nearly Right. :-)
I will be watching with much interest Bill. It's a bit ground-breaking, making a 4-bore these days....One that Looks right.
Good luck in your endeavour! Much studying before the rasps come out.

All the best,
Richard.

D. Taylor Sapergia · « **Reply #5 on:** July 17, 2019, 07:02:55 PM »

I made a rifle based on those plans with a .75 cal Don Getz barrel. I used the plans profile as closely as possible, and the rifle turned out to be a peach of a hunting rifle.
Your drawing shows a 90 degree transition from the breech area to the forestock...suggest a radius there which will obviously disappear on the lock side, but is pre-requisite on the off side.

Bill Raby · « **Reply #6 on:** July 17, 2019, 07:40:06 PM »

Plan is to date this at about 1840. That seems to be when the 4 bore rifles first began to be built as 4 bore rifles instead of something else converted or modified. Well into percussion era. Most were built as percussion, but a few rare flintlocks were made up until about 1860 - 1870. I am assuming, but do not know for sure, that they were made pretty much the same as percussion, but with different locks. Its tough finding information on these things. I have not seen a single good photo of a flintlock from this period. Just blurry ones or taken from a distance. I have found a few photos of earlier 4 bore fowlers that were modified for use in Africa. Those don't seem to be very helpful. Quite different from the rifles.

This barrel has a very heavy patent breech. It is not a hooked breech. It will definitely get an extra bolt! Thinking I might put a half inch steel rod through the wrist also.

I agree with the forearm being a bit short. It matches plans but just looks off a bit with the larger barrel.

Also agree about the curve on the bottom of the stock. I should start it around the breech and make it more gradual.

I will cut the stock with the breech an inch forward of where it is shown so I can get that radius on the off side. Don't have it on here just because I am trying to get everything laid out.

I am going to put the effort in to get his one right. It is going to be a lot of work and a lot of money. This is going to be triple the price of a typical longrifle. Barrel was expensive and the price of a nice English walnut stock blank nearly made me pass out. I expect this one is going to be quite challenging. That just makes it more fun! But I don't think there is any such thing as a 4 bore that really looks right. That huge barrel makes them all look a bit off. I will have a look at Lewis Drake. Have another rifle to finish up before starting on this one. So it will be a few months before I really get going. Right now is the time to study and get stuff ready.

Thanks for the help. I will do video of every step along the way building this and putting it on You Tube. You get to see every problem and stupid mistake.

Daryl · « **Reply #7 on:** July 17, 2019, 07:44:21 PM »

The top rifle is a 6 bore 1/2 stock flinter. I suspect it is as late as 1820, maybe 1830. Just a guess - it feels that era.

rich pierce · « **Reply #8 on:** July 17, 2019, 08:13:45 PM »

I’d think fitting the lock to a very large barrel would be one challenge. Have you decided on a lock?

Hungry Horse · « **Reply #9 on:** July 17, 2019, 08:20:27 PM »

I’m sorry, but unless you are going to do a lot of hunting of large dangerous game in Africa, why would you go through all the trouble of building such a gun? I build more standard caliber guns with the hope they will be lovingly cared for, and shot until they are worn out. This gun is likely to be shot once, and dropped, throughout its life.
At a rendezvous years ago, a guy showed up with a giant Hawken, with a one inch bore. He offered to let people shoot this monster at the long gong. In no time flat every fringy character in the entire camp was lined up for a swift kick in the puss. They had to station helpers around the shooter to catch the gun. I never understood the attraction, and still don’t today.

Hungry Horse

Gunnermike · « **Reply #10 on:** July 17, 2019, 08:47:23 PM »

Quote from: Hungry Horse on July 17, 2019, 08:20:27 PM

I’m sorry, but unless you are going to do a lot of hunting of large dangerous game in Africa, why would you go through all the trouble of building such a gun? I build more standard caliber guns with the hope they will be lovingly cared for, and shot until they are worn out. This gun is likely to be shot once, and dropped, throughout its life.
At a rendezvous years ago, a guy showed up with a giant Hawken, with a one inch bore. He offered to let people shoot this monster at the long gong. In no time flat every fringy character in the entire camp was lined up for a swift kick in the puss. They had to station helpers around the shooter to catch the gun. I never understood the attraction, and still don’t today.
Hungry Horse

I have exactly the same sentiments as Hungry Horse. I agree with his statement word for word. When I was reading the postings and gathering my thoughts, well Hungry Horse said it all. It will be a lot of effort to build and very likely not shot often....just a curiosity hanging on the wall. But if it's an itch you have to scratch, well good luck to you. Of course the herniated disc in my lower back speaks to me with a much clearer and forceful voice that cannot be ignored. Bonne chance, Mike

hanshi · « **Reply #11 on:** July 17, 2019, 09:36:29 PM »

I agree with you both!

Bob Roller · « **Reply #12 on:** July 17, 2019, 11:48:54 PM »

Years ago there was a movie called"A boy 10 feet tall".It was about a youngster,
maybe 14 that lost his parents and took off walking the African Continent from
the North end to South Africa. Toward the end of his journey he ran into an old
elephant hunter played by Edward G.Robinson who had a muzzle loading large
bore rifle.It was shown as being fired from a sitting position with his back against
a tree.When the boy got to where he was going,the home of an aunt,the first thing
he said he wanted was an old fashioned elephant gun and a quart of whiskey.
When the aunt asked about this odd request,the boy said you get the whiskey
and drink it down below the label so you have the nerve to fire the elephant gun

.
Maybe this will help if the 4 bore comes to reality.

Bob Roller

rich pierce · « **Reply #13 on:** July 17, 2019, 11:54:15 PM »

This thread is about how to build it, not if it should be built. If it was in the shooting forum and advice was asked about big bore guns that would be a different story.

Truth be known there are a lot of custom guns that don’t get much use.

snapper · « **Reply #14 on:** July 17, 2019, 11:56:30 PM »

I think when Bill stated that " I welcome any suggestions" he was not asking for your opinion if he was wasting his time building the rifle.

Fleener

smart dog · « **Reply #15 on:** July 18, 2019, 12:20:33 AM »

Hi Bill,
I for one am glad you are trying to build this gun. It will be a challenge and I commend you for rising to it. You suggest an 1840 date. That means the very end of flintlocks and likely a lock that had all the bells and whistles adopted to try and speed ignition and make it more reliable to compete with the newfangled percussion guns. With such a big barrel you will need to choose a lock carefully so it will fit. If I was trying this project, I believe I would order the series 649 lock parts set from TRS. It is a large late flint lock from Lynton McKenzie's collection. It looks like it would fit well within the plans for the Purdey percussion rifle you posted.

dave

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #16 on:** July 18, 2019, 01:28:23 AM »

Here's my opinion, take it for what it's worth. I'd go with something around a 12 bore so you'll have a more realistic sized gun and eliminate all the architectural problems a huge bored rifle will have. You'll still be punished with recoil but might not have to go to the emergency room with a busted collar bone and won't have to deal with a permanent flinch the rest of your life.
Architecture is critical on these British sporting guns, I'd not make building one any more difficult than what it already is.

Justin Urbantas · « **Reply #17 on:** July 18, 2019, 04:02:04 AM »

This might help you. http://www.sitemason.com/page/eNpDsA

Scota4570 · « **Reply #18 on:** July 18, 2019, 04:03:07 AM »

"Next project will be an English sporting rifle in 4 bore."

I made one, 1.00" bore. A very plain smooth bore cap lock. It weighs 17#. I now find it difficult to hold off hand. Shooting it off a bench seems like a bad idea.

Recoil? It has a thick modern recoil pad. At about 350 gr of 1F and a 990 ball things become unmanageable. Do stick to 1F of cannon grade. 2F and 3F increase recoil dramatically and to the level of pain and concussion symptoms.

I'm over it and will probably never fire it again. It was a lot of work. I am not sure the time was spent as wisely as possible.

Bill Raby · « **Reply #19 on:** July 18, 2019, 04:16:44 AM »

Why build it? Because I read to much. Always have. Too many adventure stories when I was younger. I decided that needed to one day have a 4 bore by the time I was 16. I am also one of those nuts that has a lot of fun with the big rifles. Already have a few modern rifles that are useless for anything except elephant hunting. I mostly use them for poking holes in paper. I doubt it will come along on every trip to the shooting range, but it would come out a few times a year. And I won't be using many 20 dram powder charges. Also I just like weird stuff.

I am using a Late English lock by L&R. Seems to be about the most correct one for this type of gun. Any recommendations for modification would be greatly appreciated. It does not fit at all. Barrel has a patent breech. Lock fits up against that part. Walls on the patent breech are over a half inch thick. So plan is to carve into that a bit to get the lock to fit. I won't have to cut very deep into it and there will be more than enough metal left.

I think this one is going to be a lot of fun to build.

Daryl · « **Reply #20 on:** July 18, 2019, 05:49:10 AM »

Enlarge this picture. Beautiful flat topped checkering with sculptured border.

Bob McBride · « **Reply #21 on:** July 18, 2019, 06:57:41 AM »

Quote from: snapper on July 17, 2019, 11:56:30 PM

I think when Bill stated that " I welcome any suggestions" he was not asking for your opinion if he was wasting his time building the rifle.

Fleener

Yea, I’m with you. I’ve never, ever, had the thought ‘why would you want that?’ enter my head during a conversation about firearms. Not once.

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #22 on:** July 18, 2019, 03:48:22 PM »

Quote from: Bill Raby on July 18, 2019, 04:16:44 AM

Why build it? Because I read to much. Always have. Too many adventure stories when I was younger. I decided that needed to one day have a 4 bore by the time I was 16. I am also one of those nuts that has a lot of fun with the big rifles. Already have a few modern rifles that are useless for anything except elephant hunting. I mostly use them for poking holes in paper. I doubt it will come along on every trip to the shooting range, but it would come out a few times a year. And I won't be using many 20 dram powder charges. Also I just like weird stuff.

I am using a Late English lock by L&R. Seems to be about the most correct one for this type of gun. Any recommendations for modification would be greatly appreciated. It does not fit at all. Barrel has a patent breech. Lock fits up against that part. Walls on the patent breech are over a half inch thick. So plan is to carve into that a bit to get the lock to fit. I won't have to cut very deep into it and there will be more than enough metal left.

I think this one is going to be a lot of fun to build.

This is what I was talking about above. Everything is going to have to be hand made or highly modified to work on a gun this size. Do you have the skills? I don't...... Also, How many of those L&R late English locks do you see used on this forum....there's obviously a reason for that. I have used two, I had only marginal success with them and I'd NEVER put one on another gun, besides, it's too small for this beast. What are you going to do for a buttplate? I'd guess you're looking at something 2 1/2" wide X 6+" tall, you'll be scratch making that I suppose. Try drawing this thing out and see if you can get the architecture to work, you're going to run into some difficult problems. Please reconsider a 12 bore sized gun, it will still kick the snot out of you if that's what you're after...maybe even go 10 bore, you could still use "normal" sized parts and architecture. How about a piece of wood? It's going to have to be hard and have excellent grain structure. Really think about the problems of building a piece like this, this is going to be tough.

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #23 on:** July 18, 2019, 03:52:30 PM »

I just re-read above, you have your stock and barrel already. Looks like you're committed now. All I can say now is good luck!

snapper · « **Reply #24 on:** July 18, 2019, 04:06:48 PM »

Is your barrel rifled? Rate of twist? Are you planning on shooting a round ball or conical? Who made your barrel?

Thanks

Fleener

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Author Topic: English SPorting Rifle Critique (Read 3408 times)