Help! :( Bent Cock??

[Scota4570]

Sounds like a "goat-rope".  Demand a refund.  Send it back.

Fitting a cock to a tumber is a simple task. 

I have observed that sometimes a "well known maker"  continues to build after his prime.  IF that is the case you may be better off walking away.  He may no longer have the skills necessary to do it right.

[Smokey Plainsman]

I very well may request a refund at this point in time. But I wouldn’t even begin to know where to put the money towards to ensure a properly built rifle. I’ve been steered wrong twice thus far. I may well just get a Pedersoli or Traditions gun and be done with it all. At least I can easily return an Italian or Spanish replica to many black powder online stores if their are issues. At this point, my old Lyman GPR, a budget Italian made gun, has shown to be better built with better quality control than the two American “traditional” builders that people insisted would be a good choice for me.

I’m just disgusted with the American shop who built my rifle in question. Sadly, they seem to be following the NEW American work trend:

“Pump as many out the door as fast as possible using lackluster components and tell the owner to take pride in your lousy product, because it’s was made in AMERICA!”

It’s just... a shame.

[little joe]

SEND the lock to the lock maker as you are making a mountain out of a mole hill. All the lock makers I deal with are good guys and will take care of you.

[Blacksmoke]

Smokey Plainsmen:  Man I feel your pain!  *I know exactly where you are coming from.  That is precisely why I belong to the "American Custom Gunmaker's Guild" -high-end workmanship is their main criteria for membership.  Many years ago my shop was constantly being flooded with muzzle loaders that were made by people that had NO business being called gunmakers.  Finally I instructed all my clients to send the guns back to the original makers.  Then I joined the ACGG - problem solved! Any gun made by someone who has ACGG credentials will be made with the highest quality that can be found in the USA!  Hugh Toenjes

[BOB HILL]

Smokey, I think Blacksmoke has solved your problem. Acgg, this is where you will find what you need.
Bob

[smart dog]

Hi,
Smokey, some people steered you toward the maker you chose and others like me tried to discourage that choice.  The problem with lax quality control is that some folks will get a good product and swear by it while others get the same thing and it is a lemon, and then it becomes the "he said this and that guy says that" kind of unproductive debate.

dave

[Smokey Plainsman]

Thanks, gang. I spoke with the builder, who’s name is on the barrel from this very popular shop, and he recommended I try and tighten the hammer screw. This did nothing. I let him know forum members here remarked the lock has an issue, but he said this was a great place for opinions.  Regardless, I am sending the lock back to him to have it checked out. Will report what happens next on this wacky journey. Thanks all.

[Mike_StL]

Those lock bolts are too long and will have to be filed down to the surface of your lock plate.  Send the builder or include a picture of the installed lock with the extended lock bolts. 

[Scota4570]

"I very well may request a refund at this point in time. But I wouldn’t even begin to know where to put the money towards to ensure a properly built rifle. "

IF the style appeals to you get a Kibler kit.  IF you can not do the work yourself it should not be difficult to find a competent person to assemble it for you, probably right here.   

[WKevinD]

Smokey Plainsman,
Between this forum and the other since June 19th you have had over 150 posts dealing with this gun companies problem and an offer from the lock mfg to correct your lock (for free) yet you you are still quoting bad info given you by the gun sales company.

I think you should do something...or not.

Kevin

[Smokey Plainsman]

Well thanks, all. But frankly, Jim Chambers did not assemble the lock incorrectly.

The builder(s) did.

At this point, all I’ve got is time. And with it, we shall see if the builder comes around and finally fixes what they hath wrought. I believe it should be made “there” problem, and not “Jim’s problem”, as it were.

If not, well, the world shall know...

[Ky-Flinter]

Well thanks, all. But frankly, Jim Chambers did not assemble the lock incorrectly. The builder(s) did.

Right!  So, what makes you think the builder has suddenly learned the correct way to assemble a lock?

..... he recommended I try and tighten the hammer screw.

Smokey,

The advice the builder gave you, quoted above, is bad advice.  You are lucky you didn't break the hammer screw.  The correct way to properly seat the hammer is to remove the hammer screw, do what is needed to seat the hammer, then reinstall the screw.

This builder you are dealing with has had, what, 2 or 3 chances to fix your gun.  Cut your losses.  Send your lock to someone who knows what they are doing.  Jim Chambers has already offered. 

-Ron

[Jeff Durnell]

Regardless of whether you send the lock away, or even if you'd send the whole gun back to be looked at,  when it comes back, and then is assembled, YOU need to make sure that the cock isn't hitting on a screw that sticks through the lock plate too far. Either the mounting screw coming in from the far side of the gun, or even the bridle screw could hit it, causing it to be crooked like that.

It wouldn't make much sense to send the lock away, have the cock mounted good and square, then mount the lock on the gun again with a bolt that sticks out too far and hits the cock.

If you haven't sent it away yet, I'd remove the cock now, and look underneath. Any rub marks on the backside of the cock? How far does the bridle screw stick out? Then put the lock back in the gun and tighten the bolts, still with the cock removed, and see how far the mounting bolt sticks out.

Then if all was well, you could decide whether to send the lock away to have the cock squarely mounted or do it yourself.

[WKevinD]

I think you should do something...or not.


or as my Pa used to say "$#*& or get off the pot"

[Dphariss]

You really need an experienced builder to examine the rifle. There’s only so much we can guess from pictures.

Exactly. Could be the lock has a tumbler hole drilled out of plumb. Or a couple of other things.
There is also a difference between "gun builder" and "assembler".
Dan

[Dphariss]

Well thanks, all. But frankly, Jim Chambers did not assemble the lock incorrectly.

The builder(s) did.

At this point, all I’ve got is time. And with it, we shall see if the builder comes around and finally fixes what they hath wrought. I believe it should be made “there” problem, and not “Jim’s problem”, as it were.

If not, well, the world shall know...

Send it to someone who knows what they are doing, Jim Chambers has offered. For one thing this may not be the only issue and with the lock there are SAFETY issues involved. I learned this, very nearly the hard way, when I was 19. Thats 50 years ago now The lock needs to be looked at to make sure the fly is set up right and the sear engages the notches properly.
Dan

[Mike Lyons]

[little joe]

You should belong to a shooting club, as almost every club has 2 or 3 guys in it that can help, ours does. And also clubs and organizations make all  these good things happen, shows,shoots reenactments and ect.

[chilehead]

I very well may request a refund at this point in time. But I wouldn’t even begin to know where to put the money towards to ensure a properly built rifle. I’ve been steered wrong twice thus far. I may well just get a Pedersoli or Traditions gun and be done with it all. At least I can easily return an Italian or Spanish replica to many black powder online stores if their are issues. At this point, my old Lyman GPR, a budget Italian made gun, has shown to be better built with better quality control than the two American “traditional” builders that people insisted would be a good choice for me.

I’m just disgusted with the American shop who built my rifle in question. Sadly, they seem to be following the NEW American work trend:

“Pump as many out the door as fast as possible using lackluster components and tell the owner to take pride in your lousy product, because it’s was made in AMERICA!”

It’s just... a shame.

Alrighty then. When I think "lackluster components", I know Rice barrels and Chambers locks immediately come to mind  . Sorta like  "lousy product" summing up the work of American rifle builders. I reckon all the builders on this forum ought to just hightail it to Italy and Spain, where they might learn a thing or two, and quit making folks feel "hopeless", "disenfranchised", and "disgusted". If they could also quit making folks talk like biblical figures, that hath its own reward, verily I say unto thee. 

[WadePatton]

Regardless of whether you send the lock away, or even if you'd send the whole gun back to be looked at,  when it comes back, and then is assembled, YOU need to make sure that the cock isn't hitting on a screw that sticks through the lock plate too far...

Mr. Plainsman, do you follow this?  You have to fix or have someone fix the lock mounting screws. You probably didn't send those with the lock and even if you did, there's no way to accurately adjust their length without the gun in hand.

Even those perfectly trimmed could become too long if overtightened repeatedly-or over the years or normal use.  These things the shooter must know and cannot be put off to a vendor or maker. 

[John SMOthermon]

Regardless of whether you send the lock away, or even if you'd send the whole gun back to be looked at,  when it comes back, and then is assembled, YOU need to make sure that the cock isn't hitting on a screw that sticks through the lock plate too far...

Mr. Plainsman, do you follow this?  You have to fix or have someone fix the lock mounting screws. You probably didn't send those with the lock and even if you did, there's no way to accurately adjust their length without the gun in hand.

Even those perfectly trimmed could become too long if overtightened repeatedly-or over the years or normal use.  These things the shooter must know and cannot be put off to a vendor or maker.

Or screwed into the wrong hole.....  over 200 post now on this same topic on the TMLF ...

[Marcruger]

I will add that in muzzleloading, it is helpful to have a positive attitude, and an inquisitive mind towards gunsmithing. 

These are not modern production cartridge guns, so there will always need to be tinkering, adjusting, and interactive work.  To me, that is one of the charms and joys of muzzleloading.  Personal satisfaction after you get it solved. 

The person who got me into muzzleloading said this when I asked why there were no "middle priced" muzzleloaders.  He said, "Once past inexpensive production guns and kits, you get into hand labor.  An experienced gun maker might work a month on a longrifle.  Say, 160 hours.  Since they are not unskilled, minimum wage workers, what should they be paid?  $20 an hour?  Well, that's $3,200.00 in labor.  That is without parts.  $200 for a barrel, $200 for a lock, $200 for curly maple, $200 for the rest.  Right there you are at $4,000.00.  So what do you want to scrimp on?  If paid minimum wage, you are still into a $2,400.00 gun.  That is why decent muzzleloaders cost money."  Is $2,400 to $4,000 a lot of money for a gun?  You betcha.  But once you look into the economics, you'll see why the price is what it is.  No gunmaker is getting rich off of doing this, even ones with a great reputation.  They are doing it because they love it. 

Just thought I'd share that.

God Bless,   Marc

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Marc:  I for one appreciate your insight.  Thankfully, it has been a rare thing for a person to complain about what I need to build a rifle.  The most significant complaint was from a doctor who should have known better.  Sometimes people don't take you seriously if you work out of your basement shop.

[BOB HILL]

Taylor, your mention of a doctor reminded me of a conversation I once had with one. (No disrespect meant to the medical profession here, some of my best friends and family are in it) He asked a price to build a rifle on the order of one I had on display. I gave him what I considered a fair price. He asked me how much  I charged per hour that was like a lot of money. I responded that I had never tracked the hours I spent on a gun I worked in my spare time and that if I had I would probably never take another order. He had already let me know that he was a doctor, so I asked how much he charged per hour for his work. He informed me that he had gone to school for years studying his craft and that was why he could command so much. I told him I had spent most of my life studying the many crafts that went into building the rifle he was holding. He said he had never thought of it that way. Many people need to see letters behind your name to be able to give credit to your achievements.

[WKevinD]

Before I retired I managed an architectural glazing business. I was stiffed three times in 25 years. Once by a doctor, once by a lawyer and once by our current commander in chief.
They all could afford the work, they all agreed to the quoted price, they all decided they did not have to pay without any warning or reason given.

Kevin