Question on powder horn spout hole size.

[Artificer]

I've only made about 5 powder horns in my life, but this is one question I've often wondered about.  Is there such a thing as a minimum size spout hole to ensure the powder flows smoothly even when the humidity is high?

I also realize the hole size could be too big, even if the horn allows a larger size, so the powder comes out too fast and dumps powder instead of flowing out. 

So if there is anything like a "best size" hole to drill out the spout, what size do you like?

 

[elk killer]

i have always just used a 1/4 inch hole
seems to work well for all calibers..and the powder flows smoothly,,
i always use a tapered reamer in the hole to get a good tight plug fit..
i even use a 1/4 inch hole for my horn that i carry shot in..

[Artificer]

Thank you for the reply, Elk Killer.  I probably would not have thought to use a taper reamer in the horn for the plug.  That's exactly the kind of information I was looking for - something I didn't know to ask and something that works better. 

Back in the late 70's, I made what Max Vickery and others used to call a "black snake" shot holder.  I found an original shot flask spout and sewed up a long leather pouch to it to hold the shot.  The unfortunate thing was I way, WAY overestimated how much shot I would actually have to carry for the Northwest Trade gun match or even a full day's hunting.  I only filled it to capacity once and the thing weighed a ton.  After that, I sewed it up so a much smaller section of the pouch would hold shot.  I would have saved a lot of time handsewing had I known or asked better questions about it earlier.

[LRB]

  I have always found a 1/4" hole to be just about right, but two things that can make it flow slow is to long of a hole, and a frayed  hole inside the horn where the drill bit comes out into the chamber. If possible check for this after drilling, and clean up the horn splinters that are probably there.

[Kermit]

Can someone post a source for a tapered reamer that size? Sounds like a luthier's tool to ream for tuning pegs...

[Cory Joe Stewart]

Yeah I got mine from a instrument building supply, I cannot remember which one.  I usually use fiddle pegs as stoppers so it works perfect. 

Coryjoe

[LynnC]

I use the sharpened square tang of a file to make my tapered holes.  You can get the taper real close to that on a fiddle peg.

[Artificer]

  I have always found a 1/4" hole to be just about right, but two things that can make it flow slow is to long of a hole, and a frayed  hole inside the horn where the drill bit comes out into the chamber. If possible check for this after drilling, and clean up the horn splinters that are probably there.

Thank you for the reply and that's an another excellent point about checking the inside of the horn for splinters.  I know I never did that on a horn before. 

[Artificer]

I use the sharpened square tang of a file to make my tapered holes.  You can get the taper real close to that on a fiddle peg.

Another excellent suggestion.  I've got a bunch of old files that I've been saving for other things and I'm sure I've got something that would work even if I don't have a tapered 1/4" reamer. 

[Artificer]

Can someone post a source for a tapered reamer that size? Sounds like a luthier's tool to ream for tuning pegs...

Kermit,

Sounds like a number 4 Taper Pin Reamer would work well. 

Taper pin reamer 4, diameter small end.2071, diameter at the large end .2604

For a use like this, I don't see why an import reamer wouldn't work, but if not, perhaps someone else will mention it.

http://www.wttool.com/product-exec/product_id/34937?utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=froog

[G-Man]

Just a personal preference but I find it handy to have the tip of the spout small enough that it allows the horn tip to just tuck inside, or at least snug up to, the mouth of your powder measure when pouring - makes for less waste.

Guy

[flintriflesmith]

When studying antique horns I have observed that earlier horns tend to have larger holes. Some are closer to 3/8 than 1/4. So if I were making a F&I War or even Rev War horn I'd tend to go a bit larger than everyone has been recommending.

Maybe those early riflemen were in a hurry to get the measure filled! Or maybe it made filling the horn without any sort of funnel easier.

Gary

[G-Man]

I've noticed that too on those big early horns Gary.  In those days I would assume they probably would have made a measure with the right diameter to work well with the horn.  I suspect they would try to not waste powder if they had a choice, but as you pointed out during a battle they were probably not caring too much about measuring accurately or spillage.


Guy

[G. Elsenbeck]

Here's one source for tapered reamers especially for fiddle pegs. 
http://www.lmii.com/CartTwo/Secondproducthead.asp?CategoryName=Reamers

Another one I've used often in the past is:
http://www.internationalviolin.com/SearchByCategory.aspx?CategoryCode=176

Warning:  quality reamers are expensive and will last a very long time if taken care of.  I've had mine for about 20 years and still sharp.
Gary

[Collector]

If  you have drill bits/sets for countersinking wood screws, then you have tapered drill bits.  You can buy them individually or in sets of ~4 ea. which cover a range of size diameters.  Home Depot should have them.

[Randy Hedden]

Taper pin reamers can also be used to taper the spout hole on a powder horn.  They are actually designed to ream tapered holes for tapered dowel pins.  They come in various sizes and have a taper of 1/4" per foot.  They can be used in a power hand drill.  These should be easier to find at a good price rather than tapered reamers designed for musical instruments.  They can even be found on Ebay.

Randy Hedden

[Randy Hedden]

Yeah I got mine from a instrument building supply, I cannot remember which one.  I usually use fiddle pegs as stoppers so it works perfect. 

Coryjoe

Cory,

Just a heads up. Fiddle pegs were seldom if ever used as spout plugs for powder horns.  So, if you want to build traditional, (read period correct),  powder horns you should not use them for spout plugs. If you submit a horn for judging at Dixons you will be dinged big time for using a fiddle peg for a spout plug.

Randy Hedden

[Artificer]

Guy and Gary,

That informatiion on F&I and Rev War period spout sizes is also exactly the kind of info I'm looking for.  You all may be psychic.  Grin. 

I've had one F&I period horn that has about half done for over 20 years and I've never gotten around to finishing it.  That's part of the reason I posted the question.  Sounds like I need to open the spout a little more from the info you both provided.  I've got the spout end down so it will fit a measure well, but there should be room to open up the spout a little more. 

At the Annual Baltimore Antique Gun Show, I always look at the original horns displayed.  There is one gentleman who has a fine collection who always has a display table at the very back of the building close to the last exit door.  He always has two or three F&I period horns.  I keep coming back to the booth hoping to find the owner because I would love to examine them more closely, but with my luck, he was never there when I've been around.   And of course, I wouldn't dream of even touching the horns without the owner's permission.

[Artificer]

 [/quote]

Cory,

Just a heads up. Fiddle pegs were seldom if ever used as spout plugs for powder horns.  So, if you want to build traditional, (read period correct),  powder horns you should not use them for spout plugs. If you submit a horn for judging at Dixons you will be dinged big time for using a fiddle peg for a spout plug.

Randy Hedden
[/quote]

I don't ever think I would submit a horn at Dixon's but I appreciate details like this as I like to make my accourtrements as historically correct as possible. 

[Randy Hedden]

Here is the other side of Guy's theory that powder measures and horn spouts were made so the spout would fit into a large mouthed powder measure.  In practice there are occasions where you would want a much smaller diameter powder measure.  

Regular troops during the F&I and AWI didn't use powder measures, but used pre-wrapped cartridges instead.  The only troops using powder measures would be Rifle units that fought by irregular tactics and maybe some militia troops.  

If one is laying down, say behind a log, and is loading and shooting from that position he would be better off with a powder measure smaller in diameter than the rifles bore.  Trying to place a powder load down a barrel with a larger than bore size powder measure just spills a lot of the powder on the ground  and means that you end up with a half charge or less. A smaller than bore size powder measure allows the shooter to load a full powder load down the barrel.

Something to think about.

Randy Hedden

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I like your thinking Randy.  I was involved in a match where we had to lay behind an 18" log, load and fire.  The officers watched closely and if your head came above the log during anything but the firing position, you were dead.  Your smaller than bore sized measure makes perfect sense...and so does a large bored rifle.

[Cory Joe Stewart]

I have hear that before, but question it, since many original horns do not have their stopper.  I read David Wright's article in the book of Buckskinning about 15 years ago now and he mentioned using them and it made perfect sense.  I do admit though they do look out of place.  I only use them now on what I would call a "fancy" horn.  I got some points taken off at Dixon's one year but I cannot remember what it was for. 

Take care

Coryjoe

Yeah I got mine from a instrument building supply, I cannot remember which one.  I usually use fiddle pegs as stoppers so it works perfect. 

Coryjoe

Cory,

Just a heads up. Fiddle pegs were seldom if ever used as spout plugs for powder horns.  So, if you want to build traditional, (read period correct),  powder horns you should not use them for spout plugs. If you submit a horn for judging at Dixons you will be dinged big time for using a fiddle peg for a spout plug.

Randy Hedden

I have heard

[Cory Joe Stewart]

I think that it is so interesting that out of all of the cool threads in this forum the size of the hole in the spout is one of the most active.  What a wonderful bunch of hornmaking nerds we have assembeled.   
Wonderful stuff

Coryjoe

[G-Man]

Randy - I think we're on the same page - while I can't say what they did back then,  I find a relatively narrow outer diameter on the horn spout easier to use without wasting powder in the process of measuring out a charge, than a large one.  And as you pointed out, a measure that is in turn smaller than the bore size makes it easier to pour the charge down the barrel without waste, especially if you are constrained on space or trying to stay down under cover when loading.

A lot of original large early horns with trumpet shaped or paneled spouts will have the edge on the very tip of the spout beveled or rounded over and I have always wondered if this was done simply to facilitate fitting snugly up to a measure when pouring.    Or it could just be for visual appeal as well, but it makes me wonder.

Guy

[wmrike]

Since we're making a tally, I put a 1/4" in my first horn years ago.  All the others have been either 5/16" or 3/8".  I can't cite any pros or cons either way, just a preference.