Question on powder horn spout hole size.

[Tim Crosby]

Sometimes I think it depends on what kind of horn you are making. If you are just drilling a hole in the horn a tapered 5/16" is about as big as I like to go to keep from having powder all over the place. On a thin neck/throated horn to keep with the outside design a tapered 1/4" may be as big as you can safely go. Same thing for a screw tip you have to be careful that the size of the hole doesn't jeopardize the strength of the tip or the threaded area. A larger hole can can cause the tip or the collar to be oversized and out of proportion to the rest of the horn.
 My thoughts, I don't think you can have a standard size hole.

 Tim C.

[G. Elsenbeck]

I can agree with Tim.  Pretty much what kind of horn (small/large), what style it's being built for, how big is the rifle, what caliber, etc.  Keeping in mind that proportion (the golden mean?) regardless of style or era of powder horn (F&I vs. Tansel styles for instance) will pretty much dictate the size of the spout hole. 
I'm also thinking similar to Guy regarding that the shape or style of the spout area may, besides also being stylized, was shaped in such a way that allowed easier dispension of powder to their measure.  In the case of a soldier back in camp, the spout shapes may have assisted in making more pre made 'cartdridges' more efficient and with less of a mess.  In this case here is an 'efficient function' that may have dictated what the 'style' and shape/size of the spout area.   
I know from a personal experience the first horn I made for myself that had a lipped spout/pour hole area and did not dispense powder to a measure without spilling all over the place.   Just my observations over the years. 

[davec2]

I am not a good horn maker.  And I use all sorts of things as stoppers, fiddle pegs included.  I also like a small tip on a horn as a thick one looks "clunky" to my eye.  However, as Tim points out, the end of the horn has to have enough thickness to maintain strength and a big enough hole to pass powder well.  I always taper the stoppers I make and I use a tool made for tapering fiddle pegs.  I use a fiddle peg reamer to taper the hole.  In the past, I have had a good fitting peg swell up in a rain squal and split the end of one of my nicely carved, thin, graceful, horn spouts.  After that, I started to drill the hole about 0.290 and install a brass sleeve.  The ID of the sleeve is then tapered with the peg reamer.  This leaves a hole a little larger than 1/4 inch (almost 5/16 at the large end) but allows for a very thin but very strong tip on the horn.  This one shows a little brass ring, but I often install the liner so that it doesn't show from the outside.  I don't think it detracts from the look of the horn.  (Mabey just me ?)





And then again, sometimes I make the whole tip out of brass or turned horn.  Same .290 starting hole and a taper.



These tips all interchange on a 3/8" threaded brass liner installed in the horn.  The second two from the left have an integral powder measure / cap.

[Artificer]

Great info about using a smaller diameter powder measure than the bore size, Gents.   I am a bit embarrassed to say that's something I never thought about, but my life has never been on the line while trying to reload a muzzleloader.  Looks like a couple antler tip measures I have are going to get chamfered down on the outside.

I've made a LOT of paper cahtridges over the years, but most of them have been for reenacting, so there was no ball in the cahtridge.  I've also wondered where the paper came from to make cahtridges outside what would have been issued to troops in the regular military forces.  Paper was a lot more expensive in 1750 to 1800 than it is today.  Also, many people did not read - especially those on the frontier.  And for those who did read, books were extremely expensive or hard to get.  For many families, the only book they had was a family bible.  

Something else I've thought about was while most folks armed with rifles would not have used paper cahtridges, personally, I would have liked to have had a half dozen or so made up for close range fighting.  A paper cahtridge usually won't seal a bore like a patch, but depending on the thickness of the paper, it might have done it well enough to hit a man size target in the torso at close range.  I know in emergency situations, they would have just used a ball without a patch at close range, but I've often wondered if some of them may have made some paper cahtridges for rifles.

In the late 1970's, I was in a primitive event where for a change most things were going right.  I stuck the tomahawk three times and something very unusual for me, I actually stuck my knife three times.  I had never been very good at starting a fire with flint and steel, but on that day, I had fire in just four seconds.  Surprised me so much I almost burnt my eyebrows.  Can't remember what the first target was we shot at, but the .735 ball and patch combination put it on target for the first round.  THEN Murphy started clogging on me.  I could not for the life of me get another patched ball down my Brown Bess Carbine.  It was a very hot and humid day and I guessed the humidity was causing the bore to foul much more than normal.  I didn't have thinner patch material on me and I would have been disqualified for any shots remaining if I left the left the area to get thinner patching.   So I finally decided to forget the patch and go with just powder and ball.  Oh, great, my next shot was on the axe blade.  I wasn't confident at all, but still took careful aim and fired.  I was shocked the ball split on the axe blade and broke both clay pigeons.  Two more follow up shots on targets out to a little over 50 yards were also right on target.  (We did not place the targets at exact ranges so everyone had to figure where their gun shot at each range.)  The only shot I missed was a small steel buffler silhouette at what turned out to be 73 yards, though the folks watching said the ball hit just beside it.  I would never have believed a Brown Bess carbine would have been that accurate without a patch (even with heavy fouling in the bore) unless I had to try shooting it that way on that day.  For whatever reason, the conditions were never again where I had to shoot the Bess with out my regular patch material, though.  It was just a fluke on that day.

[wmrike]

And another thing.  There is a lot of mention here about tapered pegs and plugs, presumably with the intent of providing some sort of friction fit.    Rather than rely on a taper, I use a slightly oversized plug and split it down the center with a fine hacksaw blade.  The resulting two halves are effectively spring loaded against the inside of the horn's spout.  Maybe the fact that I have to allow for the space of the saw cut is why I'm drilling a larger diameter spout.

[Artificer]

And another thing.  There is a lot of mention here about tapered pegs and plugs, presumably with the intent of providing some sort of friction fit.    Rather than rely on a taper, I use a slightly oversized plug and split it down the center with a fine hacksaw blade.  The resulting two halves are effectively spring loaded against the inside of the horn's spout.  Maybe the fact that I have to allow for the space of the saw cut is why I'm drilling a larger diameter spout.

That's interesting.  Do you favor a particular wood for "springiness" to make your spout plugs?

[Lee]

Great thread guys.  I've had the opportunity to examine lots of original powder horns over the years and have always paid close attention to the architecture of the carved spouts.  Many of the earlier horns had fairly large spout holes.  I've seen a good many of them with holes at least 3/8 in. in dia.  The most common size was about 5/16 in. dia.  These horns were usually military/militia related and from the F&I War and the Rev. War.  I believe the spout holes were usually related to the grain size (roughly 2F) that they were pouring and the amount of powder they needed to quickly pour for each shot (roughly 80 to 120 grains) As has been mentioned, there is nothing worse than having to stand there and wait for your powder to dribble out of your horn while someone is shooting at you.

Rangers, Light Infantry, many colonial regiments from the F&I War & local militia units carried powder horns.  These units generally used powder horns as a backup for their paper cartridges. The first shot would have been loaded from the horn to save the paper cartridges for the fight (when you need the speed that the cartridge provides).  The powder horn was also used as a priming horn as well (priming horns were very very rarely used back then).  Once a soldier's paper cartridges were used up, the soldier resorted to loading from his horn with loose balls from his pocket or the bottom of his cartridge box.  The speed of loading from the horn, hence hole size, became extremely important.... 

Later rifles, like Bedford rifles, used a much smaller cal. (.32-.36). primarily for hunting and not self defense, so a smaller spout hole in a powder horn worked fine.  They were also only pouring about 30-45 grains for each shot. I've seen horns from this period with spout holes as small as 3/16 in. dia.

One last thing, the spout holes on original powder horns were very rarely tapered.  They were often times drilled with a bit and brace.  Often times there was knife work on the spout to enlarge the mouth, but I haven't seen much in the way of tapered spouts on original horns (like the judges at Dixon's insist upon; Dixon's is about taking the art form to the next level - not so much about building dead right reproductions). 
Lee   

[Tim Crosby]

 Very interesting Lee. Thanks for the input.

Tim C.

[Randy Hedden]

And another thing.  There is a lot of mention here about tapered pegs and plugs, presumably with the intent of providing some sort of friction fit. 

The purpose of a tapered hole and a tapered plug is to make the spout waterproof and yet not have a lot of trouble with getting the spout plug in or out during wet or moist conditions. If you can't purposely hold your powder horn under water without it leaking,  then you are going to have trouble with moisture in the horn all the time.  Of course a friction fit doesn't hurt anything either.

Randy Hedden

[PIKELAKE]

Wmrike, I'll be darned. I split my pegs too. I'm just a wannbe horner. I have worked on only a half a dozen horns and I am getting better. I drill about a 1/4 inch hole, taper it a little ,wittle a peg a little over size and saw a slit with a hack saw. I sand or shave the peg till it fits real good. Never lost one, and they always come out. I cut a lot of ash trees down so I use ash for my pegs. Don't know if any of this is correct, but works for me.

[Artificer]

Rangers, Light Infantry, many colonial regiments from the F&I War & local militia units carried powder horns.  These units generally used powder horns as a backup for their paper cartridges. The first shot would have been loaded from the horn to save the paper cartridges for the fight (when you need the speed that the cartridge provides).  The powder horn was also used as a priming horn as well (priming horns were very very rarely used back then).  Once a soldier's paper cartridges were used up, the soldier resorted to loading from his horn with loose balls from his pocket or the bottom of his cartridge box.  The speed of loading from the horn, hence hole size, became extremely important....  

One last thing, the spout holes on original powder horns were very rarely tapered.  They were often times drilled with a bit and brace.  Often times there was knife work on the spout to enlarge the mouth, but I haven't seen much in the way of tapered spouts on original horns (like the judges at Dixon's insist upon; Dixon's is about taking the art form to the next level - not so much about building dead right reproductions).  
Lee    

Lee,
That was a very interesting post.  A couple questions if you don't mind.

You wrote "Rangers, Light Infantry, many colonial regiments from the F&I War & local militia units carried powder horns. "  Weren't most of these units armed with muskets, light infantry carbines or at least smoothbores?  I wondering how many of the men in these units would have carried rifles.   The reason I ask is I don't want to misunderstand what you wrote and it sounds like you may have historic evidence on at least some usage of paper cartridges for rifles?    

As to boring the spouts with a brace and bit.... that also got me wondering.  I'm no expert on 18th century hand tools, but I do collect and use some originals and some reproductions and have some good reference sources in my library.  I realize many people would use whatever boring tool they had access to and would serve the purpose.  I am not sure what percentage of horns were made by trades people and those made by the owners themselves.  

The following is speculation and is not intended to be other than that.

I would have thought a gimlet would have been a more likely tool to bore out the spout.  Gimlets were pretty common tools to many trades in the 18th century and were found in most tinker's and traveling tradesmen's kits.  You can hold the horn in one hand and still adequately bore a hole with a gimlet in your other hand.  No need to make up a special Horner's vise or even use a leather belt or strap held by your foot to hold the horn like you would need to use a brace and bit.  

If not a gimlet, then a small hand reamer perhaps as they were pretty common in woodworking trades of all sorts and those are easier made than gimlets.  Even the tang off an old file sharpened with a stone would have made an adequate reamer/boring/burning bit as well.  

I'm also thinking that if someone had access to square nail stock, that stuff heated in a nail making forge would have been dandy to burn an initial hole through the horn for a spout.  Since you had to keep so many irons in the fire to make nails, you could always grab another hot iron when the one you were using cooled off too much.  However, I sure square nail stock would have been more common back in the settled areas or on larger farms or plantations.

While typing this, I remembered one of the Woodwright's Shop shows where they visited Colonial Williamsburg and they showed the local  manufacture of a drawknife.  They heated up the tangs in the forge and it was surprising fast how quickly and deep they went into the wood.  It looked like they only took one heat to set the tangs all the way through the wood handles.  Don't remember if they drilled an initial hole through each handle first, though, and they likely had done that.

I guess what I'm wondering is how common a bit for a brace would have been that would have worked well for drilling a horn spout, unless it was special made for the purpose or was something like a diamond point style bit they used for drilling through metal.  

[Robby]

Artificer,I don't know the average hole size for any particular era, but the way I do it , the hole ends up 5/16"min., to 3/8"max.. I try to get the hole to follow the curve of the horn, sometimes that solid portion can extend up into the horn two or three inches, and there is no way your going to drill it and have the peg square to the line of the horn or not have the drill bore thru the side of the horn.
I drill a starter hole fairly square to the muzzle of what I believe will be the finished line of the horn, depending on the curve of the horn it may only be 1/2"-3/4" deep. Then the fun begins. I take the tool shown below, !/4" diameter rod, bend it to the curve of the horn, this tool has been bent and re-bent many times, stick it in the forge and get it red, then stick it into the pilot hole. You have to be mindful of the two axis your trying to follow, and at the same time, not push so hard that it yaws toward the outside of the horn.
Heat and poke, heat and poke, while your keeping all these things in mind, you dance around trying to keep that thick, acrid, stank-azz, smoke in the breeze, and not drifting up into your face, but I can almost guarantee, you'll get some. Then I use the other tool shown, a forged and filed, four sided, tapered reamer. I don't finish the hole at this point,just square and clean it up a bit. I then stick a try plug into it about 4" long to see if my line is good. I leave it in there while carving, rasping, filing any adornments into the muzzle, I can lay it in a groove on my bench and rotate the horn as I work. When I finish up the outside, I use the reamer to true up the bore with the rest of the horn. You could make a reamer with parallel sides so the hole isn't tapered, but after the burn thru the hole has a natural taper to it, so that is what I go with, and I think they seal better. I didn't have any instruction in this, I just tried to figure how they might have accomplished what they did with what they had, this is what I came up with. I could be way off base, but it works.
Robby

[Randy Hedden]

Lee,
That was a very interesting post.  A couple questions if you don't mind.

You wrote "Rangers, Light Infantry, many colonial regiments from the F&I War & local militia units carried powder horns. "  Weren't most of these units armed with muskets, light infantry carbines or at least smoothbores?  I wondering how many of the men in these units would have carried rifles.  

The designation "Rangers" actually meant two different things.  For the most part the Ranger designation on the British side meant units like Rogers Rangers or Butlers Rangers and these type of units were supplied with standard British military muskets.

On the American/Colonial side of the war "Rangers" meant Companies of Riflemen that were self equipped with rifles.

Soon after the battles of Lexington and Concord the Continental Congress called for the formation of a Continental Army as well as ten companies of "Rangers".  Two were formed in Virginia and became known as Morgan's Riflemen and Cresap's riflemen. Each consisting of approximately 100 riflemen.  These two companies force marched to come to the aid of Washington and the Continental Army at the Siege of Boston.  Three other companies, formed in Pennsylvania, also force marched to Boston.  This places approximately 500 riflemen at the Siege of Boston.

Riflemen companies were pivotal at the battle of Saratoga/Freeman's Farm.  On June 13, 1777 Morgan was also placed in command of the Provisional Rifle Corps, a "light infantry" unit of 500 riflemen selected primarily from Pennsylvania, Maryland, and Virginia units of the Main Army.

I believe  both North Carolina and South Carolina colonial regiments contained riflemen companies within their ranks.

All of these riflemen mentioned above carried rifles and loaded from powder horns.  I cannot answer the question as to whether these riflemen also carried cartridges, but considering the accounts of the shooting prowess of these riflemen in picking out British officers and shooting them.  Seems to me if they were using cartridges they would have suffered a great lack of accuracy.

The designation of rangers meant something quite different in the British army as compared to the continental army and the designation of "Light Infantry" could, and often times did mean something different to the opposing sides of the war.

Anyhow, there were quite a few riflemen in the continental ranks and they carried powder horns for the most part.

Randy Hedden

[Lee]

Hi Artificer:
Sorry about the confusion.  I meant later as in time, not as in rifles.  There should have been a comma after the word later ("Later, rifles, like the Bedford...."). Dadblasted commas will get you every time! I was not inferring that Rogers Rangers or any units from the F&I War were equipped with rifle guns (as Wallace Gussler calls them).  I think Randy pretty much summed it up. 

As far as gimlets are concerned, sure, I don't see why they couldn't be used.  When I demonstrate using period tools, I clamp a 2"X2" with a tapered end wrapped in wet leather in my vise, force the horn over the leather onto the stick, and do my business.  I like the bit and brace because I can put more pressure on the horn as I drill, making the drill time quicker. 

Concerning burning spout holes.  If I have to burn a hole to make a curved spout hole, I use the horn for something else.  I haven't burned a spout hole in twenty years.  I run a wire up inside the horn to determine the end of the cavity, mark it on the outside, and measure no more that three inches up the tip where I cut the horn.  Then I drill the hole knowing that I have a specific distance to drill.  If I don't hit the cavity in that specific distance, I pull out and redirect the bit.
Lee

[Artificer]

Robby,

Thank you for the post above.  It was very clear and easy to follow.  I believe you have an excellent idea in the fact that burning from the rear will seal the horn well.  Never really thought about that. 

Got a kick out of your description of the odor of burning horn.  I was threatened to be thrown out of the RTE Shop (or worse things) on more than one occasion due to cutting/drilling/grinding antler or horn for buttons, powder measures, knife handles, etc., etc.  Grin.  They used to bellow when I refaced my rawhide mallets.   I'm guess I'm lucky the smell never got to me as many others. 

[Artificer]

All of these riflemen mentioned above carried rifles and loaded from powder horns.  I cannot answer the question as to whether these riflemen also carried cartridges, but considering the accounts of the shooting prowess of these riflemen in picking out British officers and shooting them.  Seems to me if they were using cartridges they would have suffered a great lack of accuracy.

The designation of rangers meant something quite different in the British army as compared to the continental army and the designation of "Light Infantry" could, and often times did mean something different to the opposing sides of the war.

Anyhow, there were quite a few riflemen in the continental ranks and they carried powder horns for the most part.

Randy Hedden

Thank you for taking the time to write that out.  I was aware of the companies of riflemen on the American side, but I did not know they were commonly called Rangers. 

I also agree riflemen using cartridges would not have been common for many of the tasks assigned to riflemen because, as you mentioned, it would restrict longer range accuracy.  I hope I didn't leave the impression I thought it might have been generally done, but rather as something for close in fighting and to increase firepower at shorter ranges.  I'm thinking especially against those armed with muskets and for something like breaking up or fending off a bayonet charge or for close range fighting in woods when you didn't need long range accuracy as much, but the added firepower at short range could or would have been advantageous.  I'm also thinking that a few paper cartridges would have been good for night stalking/scout work, if one came across larger forces and was forced into a fighting retreat. 

There were moments in the Battle of King's Mountain where a few paper cartridges could have come in very handy for the American riflemen.  However as far as I know, there was no evidence or documentation any cartridges were used by the American riflemen in that battle. 

It may have been that most riflemen were so used to using the powder horn that it didn't seem necessary to make up a few cartidges for rifles, even for limited use.  It is also possible that the expense and difficulty in keeping the musket armed troops supplied with enough paper that they didn't have any to spare for the riflemen when paper cartridges for them would have had such limited use.  And of course, if the right thickness of paper was not available compared to the size of ball for the rifle, the wrong sized thickness of paper would have been worse than not having a few paper cartridges. 



 

[Artificer]

As far as gimlets are concerned, sure, I don't see why they couldn't be used.  When I demonstrate using period tools, I clamp a 2"X2" with a tapered end wrapped in wet leather in my vise, force the horn over the leather onto the stick, and do my business.  I like the bit and brace because I can put more pressure on the horn as I drill, making the drill time quicker. 

Concerning burning spout holes.  If I have to burn a hole to make a curved spout hole, I use the horn for something else.  I haven't burned a spout hole in twenty years.  I run a wire up inside the horn to determine the end of the cavity, mark it on the outside, and measure no more that three inches up the tip where I cut the horn.  Then I drill the hole knowing that I have a specific distance to drill.  If I don't hit the cavity in that specific distance, I pull out and redirect the bit.
Lee

Lee,

You method of holding the horn, when demonstrating period tools, is inventive and is certainly something they could have done with the materials and technology of the day.  I appreciate that.  There was and is always more than one way to do things.  Even though iron vises were expensive and not nearly as common in most homes as they are today, a simple wood vice, "dog" holdfast or even a tapered hunk of wood to drive against and hold the 2x2 (as was done on woodworker's benches) would have been well within ability of almost anyone in the period.  That makes your technique even more authentic, because it would have made it possible for many more people to have done it in the period. 


 

[wmrike]

Artificer - Sorry for the late reply here - I've been out and about.  I use little stubs off of hickory ramrods.  The top of the plug shaft, co-incident with the tip of the horn, I work down to the spout ID.  From there to the insert-end of the plut I allow a little bit of flare,  Once the plug is split, the flare provides the spring and the width of the cut allows the flex.  Typically I turn a fancy knob that might emulate a fiddlepeg, then bore the base of it to 3/8" or 5/16", whatever, and glue the top of the plug into it.  There you have it - something fancy on the outside and something workable on the inside

[Lee]

Hi Artificer:
I had an antique Pennsylvania work bench in my shop that had a "dog" like you mention and I used it exactly as you describe.  The bench also had a later iron leg vise mounted to it as well.  Both worked fine for mounting the 2X2 stick. The bench is now in the horn shop in the Primative Area at Friendship, IN. 

There is always a difference between the way a professional horn shop of the period would have produced things and the way something was made in a field expedient manner (out on the farm or in the field).  There are lots of ways to manipulate horn - just some ways are better than others, especially if you are looking for specific results!
Lee

[Rinehardt]

A few years ago I bought a reamer at Sears that was very similar to the reamers on the websites listed by G. Elsenbecks - minus the handles. As I recall, the price was under $10. You might want to keep checking around. Good luck.

[Artificer]

Artificer - Sorry for the late reply here - I've been out and about.  I use little stubs off of hickory ramrods.  The top of the plug shaft, co-incident with the tip of the horn, I work down to the spout ID.  From there to the insert-end of the plut I allow a little bit of flare,  Once the plug is split, the flare provides the spring and the width of the cut allows the flex.  Typically I turn a fancy knob that might emulate a fiddlepeg, then bore the base of it to 3/8" or 5/16", whatever, and glue the top of the plug into it.  There you have it - something fancy on the outside and something workable on the inside

Thank you.  I was thinking hickory would be a good wood for that, but wasn't sure.  Thanks also for the explanation of how you do it.

[Artificer]

Hi Artificer:
I had an antique Pennsylvania work bench in my shop that had a "dog" like you mention and I used it exactly as you describe.  The bench also had a later iron leg vise mounted to it as well.  Both worked fine for mounting the 2X2 stick. The bench is now in the horn shop in the Primative Area at Friendship, IN. 

Lee

Not sure how far you might be from Western Maryland, but it sounds like you would enjoy the 18th century fair they do at Fort Frederick in about the third week of April every year.  There are many folks who make 18th century stuff there.  Last time I went up about three years ago, there was a chairmaker who had made a copy of an 18th century work bench that I would have loved to have owned.  There are also a huge number of sutlers selling GOOD stuff, so beware your purse.  Grin.

http://www.friendsoffortfrederick.info/market_fair.htm

Gus