Author Topic: small case hardening jobs  (Read 3378 times)

Offline bob in the woods

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4555
small case hardening jobs
« on: August 25, 2019, 02:49:48 AM »
I like to harden some lock components, screw heads etc and have used a can of Kasenit which I purchased about 30 years ago.  It's almost gone, and since it's no longer available, I was looking for a replacement product, when someone suggested I just use sugar .  That got me thinking , it's basically carbon, so why not ?   Anyone tried it ?

Offline Stophel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4532
  • Chris Immel
Re: small case hardening jobs
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2019, 04:34:52 AM »
I'm about out of Kasenit too, and I can't find any anywhere.  I have heard of "Cherry Red", but I haven't tried it.  I guess I'll have to get some and see.
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."


Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9694
Re: small case hardening jobs
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2019, 04:40:18 PM »
I'm about out of Kasenit too, and I can't find any anywhere.  I have heard of "Cherry Red", but I haven't tried it.  I guess I'll have to get some and see.

What you will see with Cherry Red is a black finish that is not a bit
pleasing.It DOES harden which is the real objective in the process
but that's it.Sugar is one thing I have never tried but if it's used,
what kind,granulated,powdered,brown or????
I still have a small amount of Kasenit but use it rarely.I saw a
tiny pakage of it at the recent CLA show for $25 which I think
is nothing but a gouger plying his trade.

Bob Roller

Offline Blacksmoke

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 873
  • "Old age and treachery beats youth and skill"
Re: small case hardening jobs
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2019, 08:47:05 PM »
"Brownell's case hardening compound" It's the thing to use!  I've used it for years - works like a charm!  Hugh Toenjes
H.T.

Offline rick/pa

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 207
Re: small case hardening jobs
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2019, 01:41:57 AM »
I still have about a snuff can full of Kasenit.  If Cherry Red leaves the surface black can it be polished off or would I be better off just going with the Brownell's?

Offline jerrywh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8885
    • Jerrywh-gunmaker- Master  Engraver FEGA.
Re: small case hardening jobs
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2019, 02:00:35 AM »
To begin with I used Kasenit but ran out of it after about 10 years. Then I bought a jar of Potassium Ferrocyanide.  I bought this because it is what the old blacksmiths used in the 1800s. It is the best thing I have ever seen. It is twice as good as Kasinit and leaves a pleasing gray finish. It won't poison you if you don't eat it. Truth is that was the main ingedient for Kasenit.You can buy potassium Ferrocyanide on Ebay.
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

Offline JCKelly

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1434
Re: small case hardening jobs
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2019, 05:00:42 AM »
jerrywh has it right. Potassium ferrocyanide (called 'yellow prussiate of potash' or some such on your can of nice pure Sea Salt) is only moderately poisonous. However, Our Gov't decided while it was too poisonous to use for heat treating, it is OK to add the sodium version to your salt as an anti-caking agent.

I suspect Kasenit also had some carbon added in the form of powdered wood (real wood, not the petroleum coke used in your BarBQ briquetts). Nicholson used to coat their files with "cyanide loaf", mix of potassium ferrocyanide, flour & bone black, boiled together in salt water. Then Our Gov't decided that was dangerous. They really did!!!

I think it was quite a few years before the salt guys paid off Our Gov't enough to get it added as an anti-caking agent to Sea Salt. Yummy. Of course they don't call it "cyanide" on the label or it'd never sell. Rather, they use the more poetic 19th Century term "Yellow Prussiate of Soda"   As far as your body is concerned it is the Prussiate that matters, not whether it is of Potash or Soda. Won't kill you but I've heard that some folks are sensitive to a little bit of poison.

Don't believe this cranky old metallurgist? Go peruse the fine print ingredients of sea salt (Morton, for one) in your local grocery store.

Offline Stophel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4532
  • Chris Immel
Re: small case hardening jobs
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2019, 07:34:50 AM »
I've always been able to get fairly nice colors with plain ol' Kasenit.  Of course, I generally polish it all off, but sometimes I like it, so the black doesn't appeal to me.  If Brownell's makes colors, that's what I'll try.

I don't have a forge or furnace, so I can only do it with an oxy-acetylene torch.
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline yulzari

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 222
Re: small case hardening jobs
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2019, 12:44:04 PM »
Look at this video which demonstrates case hardening in simple form with easily available materials and shows how it looks inside the metal. Best depiction I have ever seen and is my core reference. 
Nothing suceeds like a beakless budgie

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9694
Re: small case hardening jobs
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2019, 02:05:45 PM »
I still have about a snuff can full of Kasenit.  If Cherry Red leaves the surface black can it be polished off or would I be better off just going with the Brownell's?

Polishing off the black finish left by Cherry Red is one more operation in a labor intensive job.
I will get some of Brownell's and see what happens.
With the Kasenit I use a 5 gallon PLASTIC bucket fuil of distilled water and 2 pounds of
potassium nitrate and it gives nice colors on the triggers I have made.I have used this
idea for over 50 years and it works.The reason for the plastic bucket is that a steel
bucket will eventually rust from the nitrated water and you will come in the shop one
morning and find a large wet spot on the floor. ;D
Bob Roller
« Last Edit: August 26, 2019, 02:19:56 PM by Bob Roller »

Offline G_T

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 228
Re: small case hardening jobs
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2019, 06:22:58 PM »
You are quenching in the potassium nitrate solution? Sort of a quick version of Nitre Bluing?

Gerald

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9694
Re: small case hardening jobs
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2019, 07:23:33 PM »
You are quenching in the potassium nitrate solution? Sort of a quick version of Nitre Bluing?

Gerald

I don't know about the Nitre Bluing but I do know that it works with Kasenit
and won't with Cherry Red. I am going to call Brownell's and get their case
hardening compound and see if it will give a decent color using the nitrated water.
I don't know how much longer I will be making these parts but I do want them to look
good when they are taken out of the box by the purchaser.

Bob Roller

Offline davec2

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2959
    • The Lucky Bag
Re: small case hardening jobs
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2019, 07:36:17 PM »
If I re-harden a frizzen face, for example (especially if it has engraving on it), I paint all the surfaces with this:



It is available from Brownells and completely protects the surfaces it is painted on from oxidation or scaling.  Water based, good to 2300 degrees F.

100-002-607WB
Anti Scale Coating

https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/metal-prep-coloring/heat-treating-accessories/anti-scale-coating-sku100002607-23076-49084.aspx?rrec=true
"No man will be a sailor who has contrivance enough to get himself into a jail; for being in a ship is being in a jail, with the chance of being drowned... a man in a jail has more room, better food, and commonly better company."
Dr. Samuel Johnson, 1780

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9694
Re: small case hardening jobs
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2019, 08:31:23 PM »
"Brownell's case hardening compound" It's the thing to use!  I've used it for years - works like a charm!  Hugh Toenjes

I looked at Brownell's website and only Cherry Red is listed.
It was probably Kasenit repackaged and dead to the market.
 Bob Roller

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9694
Re: small case hardening jobs
« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2019, 08:49:37 PM »
"Brownell's case hardening compound" It's the thing to use!  I've used it for years - works like a charm!  Hugh Toenjes

I looked at Brownell's website and only Cherry Red is listed.
It was probably Kasenit repackaged and dead to the market.
 Bob Roller

Hot DAWG,I was wrong.I called Brownell's and they do have it and it's
called SURFACE hardening compound. I will see,use and report on this
forum.$28 for a pound.

Bob Roller

Offline WadePatton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5303
  • Tennessee
Re: small case hardening jobs
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2019, 09:49:33 PM »
"Brownell's case hardening compound" It's the thing to use!  I've used it for years - works like a charm!  Hugh Toenjes

I looked at Brownell's website and only Cherry Red is listed.
It was probably Kasenit repackaged and dead to the market.
 Bob Roller
Hot DAWG,I was wrong.I called Brownell's and they do have it and it's
called SURFACE hardening compound. I will see,use and report on this
forum.$28 for a pound.
Bob Roller

How is this product different from potassium ferrocyanide for $23 per 1.1 pounds (500g) including shipping?

 to Bob or Anyone who has used "yellow prussate of potash". 

Should carbon be added to it?  Just trying to learn here, as I don't need what I won't use.
Hold to the Wind