Author Topic: Starting Fainot patchbox #2  (Read 3765 times)

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19538
Starting Fainot patchbox #2
« on: August 25, 2019, 08:04:39 PM »
I’m building a rifle pattered after the Fainot rifle in our museum and also pictured in the recent Lancaster rifles book. This is, I believe, the earliest Fainot patchbox construction style. The hinge is a single tube with tabs riveted to the lid only. Based on what I see in rivets, the hinge pin is secured to the underside of the surround using stirrup blocks riveted in place.

Here’s the start.



The original can be found here: http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=15403.0




« Last Edit: August 25, 2019, 08:08:13 PM by rich pierce »
Andover, Vermont

Offline Elnathan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1773
Re: Starting Fainot patchbox #2
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2019, 09:51:07 PM »
To what book are you referring?

That box is really something. Took me a long time looking at the original to figure out how that hinge worked (and then, of course, I reread what you wrote and see that you actually described it, had I been paying attention instead of looking at the pretty pictures...). Do those brass rivets in the surround next to the upper corner of the lid and beside the middle screw underneath hold the release and kick springs?

Looks to me like while Fainot used a single pin for the hinge he cut away the rear of the lid knuckle in the middle, so the pin is exposed inside the lid for much of its length. Cutting away the back of the knuckle would make driving that long pin a lot easier without risking it getting bent, I guess, though it seems like just using two short pins on the ends would have been easier.

Edited to add: Fainot seems to have finished his gunsmithing career in Lancaster, PA. I wonder if he trained someone who moved out to Kentucky.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2019, 09:55:55 PM by Elnathan »
A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition -  Rudyard Kipling

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19538
Re: Starting Fainot patchbox #2
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2019, 10:59:51 PM »
This is the book.



Here is how I set up the underside of the lid with the tube hinge, tabs riveted to the lid, and the knuckles or stirrups with hinge pin. You are correct much of the hinge pin was exposed.



My previous Fainot box, a slightly later construction technique with multiple interlocking knuckles, is here. Hopefully you can see the catch spring. It is anchored next to the buttplate and riveted there.










Made them both of 1/16” stock which is a bear to form. The patchbox, hinge, catch and opening spring are all riveted together in a single unit.




« Last Edit: August 25, 2019, 11:11:03 PM by rich pierce »
Andover, Vermont

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19538
Re: Starting Fainot patchbox #2
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2019, 11:33:45 PM »
Kinda confusing showing box #1 and box #2. Here’s just 2 so far.





Andover, Vermont

Offline Elnathan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1773
Re: Starting Fainot patchbox #2
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2019, 11:49:34 PM »
I see now what you meant by stirrup block. Complicated apparatus, that. Looks very cool, though.
A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition -  Rudyard Kipling

Online P.Bigham

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 596
Re: Starting Fainot patchbox #2
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2019, 12:24:31 AM »
Rich nice work on the patchbox. What can you tell about the Butt plate I have wondered about the seemingly pinched down shape of the butt and comb ?
" not all who wander are lost"

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19538
Re: Starting Fainot patchbox #2
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2019, 12:35:28 AM »
Rich nice work on the patchbox. What can you tell about the Butt plate I have wondered about the seemingly pinched down shape of the butt and comb ?

Paul, this is how he did several that way. I think his patchbox design was so important to his overall design that he was willing to break some norms like a buttplate tang extension level with the comb.
Andover, Vermont

Offline TommyG

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 601
  • "Double Trouble"
Re: Starting Fainot patchbox #2
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2019, 02:15:23 AM »
My goodness Rich, you sure do love a challenge!  Looking good.  Looking forward to seeing your progress with it and of course the finished box.  Is the hinge barrel engraved with the double lines? or did he use another technique.  Either way, I would imagine that part will be quite a challenge as well.

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19538
Re: Starting Fainot patchbox #2
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2019, 02:26:00 AM »
Tommy, engraving that tube scares me a little. I made a 2-line graver but think this was done with a single line square graver. I’d better practice some!
Andover, Vermont

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13415
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: Starting Fainot patchbox #2
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2019, 02:42:46 AM »
I think 1/2 of the time building that gun is just going to be in the box! ;D
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19538
Re: Starting Fainot patchbox #2
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2019, 02:50:37 AM »
I think 1/2 of the time building that gun is just going to be in the box! ;D

Maybe he made his apprentices make them when things got slow?
Andover, Vermont

Offline Stophel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4532
  • Chris Immel
Re: Starting Fainot patchbox #2
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2019, 07:27:16 AM »
Very impressive!
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline B.Barker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1394
Re: Starting Fainot patchbox #2
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2019, 12:47:42 AM »
Those are kool looking patchboxes but look like a pain to make. Looks like you've done a nice job on it.

Offline Eric Kettenburg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4178
    • Eric Kettenburg
Re: Starting Fainot patchbox #2
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2019, 12:58:25 AM »
Rich nice work on the patchbox. What can you tell about the Butt plate I have wondered about the seemingly pinched down shape of the butt and comb ?

Paul, this is how he did several that way. I think his patchbox design was so important to his overall design that he was willing to break some norms like a buttplate tang extension level with the comb.

I don't think the "off" angle of the upper buttplate tang relative to the comb was anything deliberate as there are a fairly good number of rifles extant by varying makers with the same issue, if we can view it as an issue.  I don't have any kind of explanation for it but my guess is that it was simply a "good enough" kind of thing.  Heck, the only signed Albrecht rifle has the same 'issue.'
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19538
Re: Starting Fainot patchbox #2
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2019, 02:05:44 AM »
Dad gum it Eric another weird hypothesis disputed or debunked!  Both known Fainot rifles show this crunched buttplate corner.  Of course rare events happen every day. Just look at this bunch if there’s any doubt about that!
Andover, Vermont

Offline Eric Kettenburg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4178
    • Eric Kettenburg
Re: Starting Fainot patchbox #2
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2019, 02:34:07 AM »
I wouldn't say it's debunked, I'm just offering up my opinion based upon what I've seen.  Actually it seems to be a common early Lancaster-area 'thing' as you see it in Fainot's work as well as the signed Albrecht and also quite a few signed Dickerts, also a couple of others I can't specifically recall at the moment.  Maybe it was a regional thing with a long-lost purpose?
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline Stophel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4532
  • Chris Immel
Re: Starting Fainot patchbox #2
« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2019, 02:39:33 AM »
Perhaps the buttplate simply had a wide tang designed for a thicker, less tapered comb, and when it was put on a tapered, thinner-comb stock, they simply pounded the corners down to fit the comb.  That's what looks like happened with the pictured Fainot gun.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2019, 02:43:54 AM by Stophel »
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19538
Re: Starting Fainot patchbox #2
« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2019, 02:50:55 AM »
Workin on mysteries without many clues!
Andover, Vermont

Offline Eric Kettenburg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4178
    • Eric Kettenburg
Re: Starting Fainot patchbox #2
« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2019, 03:06:00 AM »
Oooooh that's good.
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Online P.Bigham

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 596
Re: Starting Fainot patchbox #2
« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2019, 03:38:35 AM »
I still don't get the Butt Plate. Butt and Comb being crunched together. Today were told all lines should flow together for a pleasing eye appeal.  I hope this doesn't detract from Rich's post on the patchbox his study and workmanship on it. I just find the Butt Plate so weird.
" not all who wander are lost"

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19538
Re: Starting Fainot patchbox #2
« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2019, 04:04:19 AM »
Here’s the other known Fainot rifle.  Maybe less pinched but I convince myself it’s there.




Andover, Vermont

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19538
Re: Starting Fainot patchbox #2
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2019, 08:58:52 PM »
More progress. The lid is installed, with the hinge pin anchored In place by little blocks riveted to the surround. Any little gaps will mostly close up as I install it on the stock and flatted the lid a bit to match the surround. Fitting takes a bit of filing.









Andover, Vermont

Online P.Bigham

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 596
Re: Starting Fainot patchbox #2
« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2019, 10:40:17 PM »
Looking good. Hope to see this sometime.
" not all who wander are lost"

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13415
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: Starting Fainot patchbox #2
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2019, 03:07:13 PM »
I wouldn't say it's debunked, I'm just offering up my opinion based upon what I've seen.  Actually it seems to be a common early Lancaster-area 'thing' as you see it in Fainot's work as well as the signed Albrecht and also quite a few signed Dickerts, also a couple of others I can't specifically recall at the moment.  Maybe it was a regional thing with a long-lost purpose?
I think Just a bad day for buttplates and they went with it. I have days I shouldn't be in the shop as things just go awry.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Cory Joe Stewart

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1862
    • My etsy shop
Re: Starting Fainot patchbox #2
« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2019, 05:08:05 PM »
Impressive work.