Hawken Help

[Tizzy]

Gentlemen,

I am currently in the process of assembling what I hope turns out to resemble a Sam Hawken rifle. It has been a long making in the process, as I have acquired the parts piecemeal from various places..(I.E. the classifieds here....Ebay...etc.). I would have loved to have assembled this from one of the more historically accurate  components sets such as from Don Stith, however, being on a tight budget I just acquired what I could along the way when I spotted a deal.
 A quick rundown of the parts.......Walnut, somewhat precarved stock. It appears to be what was at one point a profile of the Ithica Hawken for the stock duplicator? It had the lock and barrel inlet, but no ramrod hole drilled. It has presented me with more than a few challenges to say the least.  Barrel I acquired later is 31.5" x 1" straight. Breach and tang appears to be old Cherry Corners.  One of the main issues that I had was that no production lock plate would fill the inlet, so I fabricated one from an old piece of iron I found inside a centuries old barn, then added Davis internals and hammer to it. Underrib is hollow from MBS, and soldered to the barrel. Trigger-guard and entry pipe are from TOW.

I have never had the opportunity to handle an original Hawken, and I have been attempting to go off of photographs and drawings that I have observed from posts on this forum, web searches, and Baird's great books. While there are many great photos of these rifles, I have had a difficult time establishing the shape of the forearm.....in particular, the sides of the forearm. On some rifles the forearm looks rounded with a light ridge running from the entry pipe through the barrel escutcheons, to the lock pannels, giving the effect of that line being the beginning transition point for rounding towards the belly and towards the barrel. On others, the sides of the forearm appear more flat. Am I correct in this assumption? Were the earlier  rifles more rounded in this area, and the later Sam Hawkens flatter down the forearm sides? Or was this a feature that just depended on the rifle?

Any answers to these questions would be appreciated, and any photos that someone would be willing to post displaying the top and underside of the forearm area on any original or close copy that someone is willing to share would be great.  I appreciate the help, and apologize for the wandering post.   

[mountainman70]

Hi Tizzy,and welcome aboard. I would reckon that several Hawken gurus will help bring you to an advanced stage of En--- lightenment on the Mystreies of Jake and Saml.
I know I have benefitted from them.
I predict that before 10pm eastern, some o them hoots will come in. Bein a holiday weekend, hard to tell,tho.
Have a good time here. best regards, Dave F

Been thru Seneca a bunch of times when I lived in Georgia. Always wondered if'n there be any Mountainmen there !!1 Reckin so.

[Bob Roller]

The old ones were all handmade guns and while they frequently share the same
characteristics,they are NOT identical. The late Tom Dawson  said many times
that the best we can do today is build a reasonably good representation.He was
referring to making a gun without having the old one in front of him on the bench.
I made a wide variety of these locks for years along with various styles of long bar
double set triggers. This was over 50 years ago when interest in these St.Louis
guns was hot. It seems to be simmering again now.We'll see.

Bob Roller

[mountainman70]

Hello Bob Roller, I well remember the heyday,and it is gratifying to see interest in Jake and Saml warming up again.
Good to see ya on here this evening. Best regards, Dave f

[rich pierce]

Not an expert but all originals I have handled (early J&S to late S.) are remarkably slim with egg-shaped forearms tapering to a knife edge at the barrel. 

[Herb]

Rich has the answer.  There are no flats on the sides, they are such a curve that the escutcheons are curved, more at the top than the bottom half.  "Egg- shaped", but I never really figured that out.  Here is Jim Bridger's Hawken at the museum in Helena and my copy of it, built from photos from when it was at the Green River Rifle Works in 1975 to 1978 and a tracing made of it then.  I handled the rifle in a class there.







Herb and Jim Bridger's Hawken.











This is a different Hawken at the Helena Museum.

I have handled and measured at least 8 original Hawkens and closely examined about 30 more.  None have flat sides nor a line down the forend.

[Herb]

This is Kit Carson's Hawken at Sante Fe.












This is a Hawken with a patch box at the Cody Museum.

This is Liver Eating Johnson's rifle at Cody.



The William S. Hawken at Cody.

[Tizzy]

Thank you everyone for your responses! You all have been most helpful. Herb, those photos are nothing short of both informative and spectacular!

[Herb]

The photos of the Carson rifle were taken by my friend Kevin Meyer.

[Don Stith]

You have been given some excellent info.

 Just wanted to add one thing
  A common mistake on reproductions is to put a belly in the forearm. There should not be one.

  The transition to lock panels and entrypipe/nose cap gives an optical illusion that looks like a belly
 best wishes with your build
 My email is ontargets@aol.com if I can help
Don

[Scota4570]

Track sells plans that will be helpful to understand the cross sections of the stock. 

[Tizzy]

Thanks again to everyone. Great advice. Don, thank you for the clarification that the belly on the forestock is but an illusion. That helps answer yet another question that I had in mind, but forgot to ask. It seems the fallicy that the old rifles had a slight belly in the forestock was at one time circulated missinformation, and just looking at photos, it is easy to see why. You gentlemen that have
put forth the effort  and created the opportunity to handle originals, and those that have spent countless hours in study are such a wealth of knowledge to those of us that have not. Thank you.

[Herb]

Tizzy, it is kind of you to thank those who have helped you.  Commonly, people who ask for help and get a lot of it from many people do not even acknowledge that help.

[mountainman70]

Herb, I bleeve Tizzy be a class act !!! He cant be too bad, havin the Hawken bug and all. Dave

[Herb]

MM70, such people should be encouraged!  So here is how I do a Hawken butt plate.

[Tizzy]

Men, thank you for the information that you so freely share. To gain knowledge takes time investment, to share it takes additional time. It would be easy for all of you to keep the wealth of knowledge that you have to yourselves...yet you share it freely.  Herb, thank you again for yet another informative post.

[Tizzy]

One quick question......were the underibs just soldered on originals, or were they soldered and riveted?

[Herb]

They were soldered or riveted or screwed.  The Bridger and Carson ribs are riveted on.

[Herb]

Here is Jim Bridger's Hawken in the museum at Helena.  Two copper rivets showing.  There were four rivets.

The front pipe showing how it is soldered on and the rivet.

I think it was the "Robidoux" Hawken in the Nebraska Museum at Lincoln that had the front screw missing but the solder that filled the hollow underrib at the muzzle soldered the rib to the barrel so it was not loose.  I think I took a picture of it, if I can find it. The Kit Carson is like the Bridger.  Liver Eating Johnson's Hawken has the rib riveted on, in the Cody museum, so does the Pistol grip Hawken there.  However, the S. Hawken rifle there with a capbox has the rib soldered on.  I think I heard that sometimes the screw heads were filed off so no slot showed.

[Tizzy]

Thank you Herb. Most informative.

[FALout]

If you go to bottom of page, click on “jump to” then go to part of forum on metal working, there you will find how to rivet on a underrib.  To me riveting is the easiest way and it works very well.  Less chance of drilling into bore. 

[KC]

Tizzy, I didn't notice it mentioned but if you can, get a copy of Hershel House's DVD of him building a Hawken rifle. You can get it through American Pioneer Videos. He makes it look easier than it really is, but he does discuss many of the finer details that are typical of Hawken rifles. As Hershel suggests in the DVD, also try to get a set of the plans that The Hawken Shop sells, it'll help with the details.
K.C.

[Cades Cove Fiddler]

  ...Wow,..... been following this post and some great info and pix here,.... I too was in the Hawken mode back in the early '70's, but eventually traded mine for an original Hacker Martin pistol about 1982 and have only messed with East Tennessee rifles since,...however, Hawken rifles still hold a special place in my heart and sometimes I have a craving for another,... !!! ... Now,... I want a bit more info from Herb and his excellent input and photos,... question is,... Which is the original, and which is your re-creation in those photos,... ... I could easily be fooled,... !!! .... regards,... Cades Cove Fiddler,.....

[Tizzy]

Great information! I have already soldered the underib and thimbles on to the barrel.....seems strong, however was not sure if I should add rivets or not to be more authentic. It appears that for a late rifle I probbably should.I am attempting to make this build as PC as possible, however the architecture was already set by the buttplate position, and is less to be desired as the top of comb exhibits a slight roman nose. Drives me nutts...but it is what I am working with. Thank you all for your time and assistance.

[Tizzy]

I should add, I am by no means building this rifle for anyone but myself. Im just a hobbiest. It has provided me with great learning, coupled with the great information provided here by members...I guess that is what really matters. I intend to build a correct Hawken within the near future.