Hawken Help

[Herb]

If it is soldered, do not add rivets.  All three methods (including screws) were used, whichever the workman preferred,  and the method cannot be used to date rifles.

[Herb]

Mr. Fiddler, in the first photo, the bottom rifle with the hole in the trigger guard is Jim's.  I had not yet aged mine by wearing the blue off the lock and triggerguard.  Mine is the top one in all the paired photos.  My rifle now, with many hundreds of rounds through it and with elk and deer hunting, looks more worn like the original.

[Herb]

Fiddler, here is what it looked like six years ago.  I did some string cutting at 100 yards from my bench rest.



Here it compares to some others I built, third one down.  The worn lock shows better.  Thanks for your kind words.

[Tizzy]

Herb, that is a beautiful batch of rifles!

[Gunnermike]

Herb, that is a beautiful batch of rifles!

Ain't they though!  I call that 5 rifle photo "Herb's Hawken Herd" - always a pleasure to see Herb's collection.  Thanks for posting guys.
Mike

[Herb]

Thanks, guys  I found my previous posts, and the Robidoux Hawken in Lincoln had a riveted rib, but the front rivet was missing.  The soldered end of the rib held it in place.

[Bob Roller]

Here's some more "Hawken Help".
Bob Woodfill sent a list of parts suppliers
and builders and my name was not on it
by request.If I get anything made,locks
or triggers for a Hawken I will post it here
and no other place.Right now I have ONE
set trigger for a Hawken ready to send.

Bob Roller

[Tizzy]

I hope the pictures uploaded correctly.
There is still tons of work to be completed.....finishing, making bolts flush...etc., but I am just happy to have here bolted up after a few years. I want to say thank you to this forum, and to all that have offered advice during this process. I know this rifle has many failings, and please do not feel that the advice provided here was in vain when you look at these pictures. The next one will be better thanks to you all!
 One relief is that she will be serviceable, many cosmetic flaws, but she will be a good hunting rifle! I cant express the moment of relief that I felt when the hammer aligned with the nipple with only a few modifications to the tumbler!
I hope to post some more photos once she is cleaned up. I apologize for the cell phone pictures... especially since my wife is a professional photographer. (And one of the best if I dare say so!)
Thanks again to all of you!

[mountainman70]

Looking good so far..It always makes my heart happy when the hammer face lines up with the nipple. Have plenty of experience getting them to fit.
Hawkens are an intensely mechanical fitting project,in addition to getting the shapes /contours right. I am still working on that. best of luck with the finish up. Dave F
 n'uther Hawken disciple

[Tizzy]

url upload image
Finally got a chance to put a few down range with her. The group on target is the first 3 shot string that I fired after ensuring she would hold together. Nothing to write home to mom about, but a good start. Hopefully it will work fine on deer.

[Dan Herda]

Awesome job there ! Looking forward to more pictures.

[KC]

That turned out great. Nice work, maybe if you get a chance you could post some close up pictures.

[Herb]

You did a really good job on that rifle.  It looks correct to me, and shoots well, too.

[Tizzy]

Thank you gentlemen for the kind comments. Following deer season I have a few things I need to correct before posting some pictures..not that I feel the rifle is any kind of masterpiece in which all has to be perfect, because it is far from it......just some stuff that bugs me...sloppy workmanship stuff. Things like after I rust blued the barrel the upper thimble became un-solderd, and when I resoldered it, the pretty blue finish got messed up. Now it needs to be redone. I need  to order new tang bolts to fix unflush heads...after firing the tang bucked up a tiny bit, necessitating tightening of bolts, leading to unflush bolt heads. Things like that. Good news is she shoots well, and I hope the deer wont care for now about the "beauty marks". Thanks again for everyones help to get the rifle to this point. It is appreciated.

[FALout]

What do you mean when you say “unflush tang bolts”?  Sometimes when you put things back together after finishing stock, parts don’t fit as well, finish pooled up in certain recesses.  Maybe a better explanation with pics, folks here can help you out before ordering unneeded parts.  Looks like a nice rifle, you shouldn’t beat yourself up about some mistakes.  As for soldering, it’s one of the harder things to do to control the heat, I don’t think I would tackle double barrels like on a shotgun.  My last Hawken I pinned the barrel, but in your situation where it just came lose, not much choice.  Like I said, don’t order any parts yet, give better explanations of your issues, so everyone can help you out.
Bob

[Tizzy]

Thank you FALout for the reply. So, in the attached pictures you can see some of the issues I was talking about. Pertaining to the tang bolts...see how the tang sits above the wood slightly now, if I tighten the bolts it makes the tang flush...however it just accentuates that the bolt heads are below the metal surface.
Second, the underib needs more solder put on top...I would almost rather re-file muzzle to reduce it to get solder face in underib smooth than to reheat barrel to add solder.
Third, should I file the hammer to a better shape?
Fourth...I do not have the equipment to color case harden, how would you guys finish the tang, lock plate, etc. that would have been case hardened. I beleive I read somewhere that the oroginal case hardened was more of a grey color than true color case hardening. Is this possible to replicate without expensive equipment? Thanks guys.

[FALout]

As for the tang, likely that maybe there’s some wood finish inside the tang channel?  Do you only have one tang bolt?  Was the tang like this before you took it out to shoot it? 

Is the under rib loose? Where you filled the end of the rib with solder just fall out?  Is the rib solidly mounted?  When soldering , the use of flux is critical and difficult to get right.  At this point you need to decide if the rib is on correctly and if not make it right, refinishing the barrel sucks but not the end of the world.  If rib is okay, filling in the end isn’t too bad, I’d stick the solder to the rib and not the barrel, less heat will be needed and maybe finish wise you can live with the way it will look when done.

When it comes to tang bolts, I prefer domed.  I know that may not be perfectly historically correct but so be it.

[Tizzy]

FALout,
Luckly the rib is on solid..just has that void at the end. As you suggested,  I will try and add more solder to the end....I have to refinish the barrel anyways.
Yes, it does have two tang bolts, sorry pic failed to capture that. However the tang was  not like that prior to shooting. I think the recoil possibly did that upon the initial shots. I can tighten the bolts to make it go away, but then the countersink is too deep.

[Herb]

You don't need to reshape the hammer.  Almost nobody knows the shape doesn't exactly match the original Sam Hawken hammer.  But do it if you want to.  You can heat blue the buttplate, toe plate, breech plug and tang, entry pipe, nose cap, screw or bolt heads, triggerguard and trigger plate with a propane torch.  That is the easiest of the metal finishes.  Heat an area with the smallest flame tip and when the object turns yellow and then bronze, get the heat off.  The color will continue on to a blue or even purple.  Too much heat, it goes gray.  Let it cool, steel wool the color off and do it again.  Can you find another tang bolt with a larger head to fill the countersink?  Or can you peen the countersink closed against the bolt head?

[FALout]

One problem that happens , like the tang bolt filed flush on a curved surface, is how square the hole and countersink is to the tang.  When you turn that tang bolt 180 degrees the screw had will do that, turn it another 180 degrees one way or another it I’ll look good usually.  Drilling as square to the surface is very important, I don’t worry so much on hole orientation going into trigger plate except side to side and not hitting triggers and such.   Now if the tang is moving on you when shooting, your inlet was a little sloppy and that will cause grief for fine tuning your accrucy and could split the stock at the wrist if that tang is moving back and forth.  As it looks like your stock is finished that will cause some issues if you want to correct tang fit.

[Daryl]

Bedding the back end of the tang, solid to the wood is in order if loose - causing the tang to move as indicated.

[Tizzy]

Herb, I will try my hand at producing colors on the tang etc. with heat. Its sounds easy enough.
FALout, you are dead on about the tang bolt holes needing to be square, and unfortunately mine are not perfect. I did have to file the bolt heads to get them flush as possible due to the countersinks not being perfectly sqauare. Possibly I should have tightend them down a little tighter prior to doing so, and not worried so much about screw slot alignment? Failure to tighten all the way could have potentially allowed a little movement upon firing? However, I do not think the inletting of the tang is the culprit of movement, as I glass bedded the tang and breech of barrel to ensure a good fit at the tang/breech area. Not PC...but it helps to keep it tight.
Thanks gentlemen for the help.

[Tizzy]

Daryl, you must have been sending your reply as I was typing my previous response as I did not see your reply prior to submitting  mine, but yes...I already ventured down the evil AccraGlass path. Lol
 Thank you for your help!

[FALout]

If you glass’d the tang, you should be able to get it seated in there like it was before finishing the stock.  Scrape out any finish that might have gotten down in there.  Is it possible that your trigger plate pulled into the stock deeper allowing the tang to move up out of the stock?  It sucks not being able to see your rifle in person.  I guess first concern is tang movement, then the tang bolts.  You could use domed bolts for the tang and file them so they aren’t as rounded or sit so high, only problem there is recutting slot a little deeper is sometimes needed which can require proper file to do it.  Keep looking it over, take it apart and reinstalling, sometimes it’s frustrating but real problem will be found and then a solution can be applied.  As I said in other post, the tang can not move during firing of rifle or the stock is likely to spit or lose a piece of wood.

[Tizzy]

Embarassing to say, but true...I guess sometimes the simplelist is the best fix. I got off work this morning and took the rifle apart. What I found was a bunch of half dried linspeed oil caked up on tje bottom of the tang, and in the bottom of the inlet. I cleaned the gunk out, reassembled, and buttoned her back up. Tang bolts turned a full rotation more, and tang is flush. I guess after finishing stock, I left that gunk in there and didnt tighten bolts all the way down. When I fired it...it told on my mistake. The triggerplate is a tad more recessed into the stock now, but I think i am ok with that amount.